OSAS The Truth

[Karl]

I'll chime in,

On turning the flesh over to satan, as FreeGrace has stated the persons body would be destroyed, ...looking at today's examples are all of the sexually transmitted diseases so rampant.

But the Corinthian man Paul was talking is not our first example found in the Word, ...Jesus turned Peter over to satan, and that is probably where Paul got it from, any time we are walking in the flesh we are walking in satans world and he has the right to touch us, because God is just He won't stop satan, because we are in his world, only limit him, like He did in Job's case, how many here have been whacked by satan and we come running back to Father very quickly, ...I certainly have, and Father allows it as part of our maturing process called sanctification, as we grow spiritually from babies to children to youth and finally adults, we learn what the results are if we don't crucify our flesh.

 

[JLB]

No true believer can be blotted out of the lamb's book of life, IMO.

Agreed.

For a true believer, believes unto the end.

We will see who is a true believer and who is not, on the day of judgement.


True believers will hear these words spoken directly to them.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those that thought they were believers, but were not, will hear these words spoken directly to them -


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Both groups were called "Servants".


Notice that Jesus had just finished teaching His Disciples the parable of the talents -

The parable is about the kings servants.


30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:30-34


It is interesting when you actually read what Jesus said to these two groups.


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Matthew 25:41-44


'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


OSAS folks mistakenly think these on His left hand were classified as the world, those whom rejected Him and were never His servants.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Not really truly saved my friend.

Ok Brother.

Believe for awhile means something else then.


JLB

 

[Karl]

Crowns we can have,

A crown for winning souls, Phil 4:1, 1 Thes 2:19

A crown of rejoicing, 1 Thes 2:19

A crown of righteousness, 2 Tim 4:8

A crown of life, Jas 1:12, Rev 2:10

A crown of glory, 1 pet 1:5

A crown of gold, Rev 4:10

And we can lose the crowns we have, by falling into the devil's trap of false doctrine,

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:11,

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2:23-26

 

[veryberry]

I'll chime in,

On turning the flesh over to satan, as FreeGrace has stated the persons body would be destroyed, ...looking at today's examples are all of the sexually transmitted diseases so rampant.

But the Corinthian man Paul was talking is not our first example found in the Word, ...Jesus turned Peter over to satan, and that is probably where Paul got it from, any time we are walking in the flesh we are walking in satans world and he has the right to touch us, because God is just He won't stop satan, because we are in his world, only limit him, like He did in Job's case, how many here have been whacked by satan and we come running back to Father very quickly, ...I certainly have, and Father allows it as part of our maturing process called sanctification, as we grow spiritually from babies to children to youth and finally adults, we learn what the results are if we don't crucify our flesh.

We are sanctified the moment we believe, (Roms 6-8). This process of maturing is called edification. We don't crucify ourselves. The holy Spirit baptized us into Jesus Christ, making us partakers of his death, burial, and resurrection. We are made dead to sin and alive unto God. Our old man was crucified through Jesus Christ and not by anything we do. The first few verses in Romans 6 is actually very great for eternal security, because all this was done when we put our faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. It is the faithfulness of Christ that saves us, not us....The moment we believed, we are risen with Christ and seated in heavenly places with him.

 

[smaller]

Ok Brother.

Believe for awhile means something else then.

JLB

It means all of us have enemies of our individual faith. It also means faith can and often is quenched by enemies of the Gospel. And if you read the progression of this matter in Mark 4 accurately you'll even see that those who overcome actually go through each of the progressive steps themselves, so it is a course that every believer ends up taking in any case, because of the fact of the enemies of the Gospel. The linking or connecting phrase that is employed is 'AND THESE ARE THEY.'

We can not be overcomers UNLESS we are challenged by our enemies.

14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

There is no "I jumped to the last position." But the other believers didn't.

It is pointless to look at the fate of people who engage the enemy, often unknown to them, and then just toss them under the bus by threatening their eternal fate and failing to look at the enemy who has deceived or even captured them. That's just a very very poor way to treat challenged believers.

Every vile manipulator who stands in the pulpit stands there using the threat of hell against his adherents. Such manipulators are shown in many cases to be already captured and defeated and a bunch of phony manipulating religious actors themselves.

But for some odd reason the heady position of threatening another believers salvation appeals to the more vile aspects of religious peoples minds.

It's an enhancement to their own internal power monger. And it breeds other power mongers and a slew of divisions.

 

[Jesse]

Agreed.

For a true believer, believes unto the end.

We will see who is a true believer and who is not, on the day of judgement.


True believers will hear these words spoken directly to them.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


Those that thought they were believers, but were not, will hear these words spoken directly to them -


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Both groups were called "Servants".


Notice that Jesus had just finished teaching His Disciples the parable of the talents -

The parable is about the kings servants.


30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:30-34


It is interesting when you actually read what Jesus said to these two groups.


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Matthew 25:41-44


'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'


OSAS folks mistakenly think these on His left hand were classified as the world, those whom rejected Him and were never His servants.



JLB

You said a true believer believes until the end, but then you discuss Jesus dividing the groups into two groups, aren't both groups true believers? One are the goats the other sheeps, but they both believed, correct?

Then why is it God can not blot their names out of the book of life?

And can you please answer my question, who will the Saints rule over? What people?

Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, it is. And exciting.


What does one normally do with a crown?


I sense from your sarcasm that you aren't all that impressed with the promise of rewards that God has made to faithful believers.


Paul said that if we (believers) endure, we will REIGN with Christ. Who do you suppose we'll be reigning over? Surely angels, but all those believers who didn't endure.


By God's grace.

How about this?
Matthew 18:4;
How do you apply this verse to your heavenly rewards program?

 

[JLB]

You said a true believer believes until the end, but then you discuss Jesus dividing the groups into two groups, aren't both groups true believers? One are the goats the other sheeps, but they both believed, correct?

Then why is it God can not blot their names out of the book of life?

And can you please answer my question, who will the Saints rule over? What people?

Thanks.

Please post the scripture about saints ruling over people.


Thanks JLB

 

[veryberry]

How about this?
Matthew 18:4;
How do you apply this verse to your heavenly rewards program?

The kingdom of heaven is the promised kingdom to Israel, not the body of Christ. Their rewards differ.

 

[veryberry]

Please post the scripture about saints ruling over people.


Thanks JLB

Israel will rule over the gentile nations in the millennium with Christ as king.

 

[JLB]

It means all of us have enemies of our individual faith. It also means faith can and often is quenched by enemies of the Gospel. And if you read the progression of this matter in Mark 4 accurately you'll even see that those who overcome actually go through each of the progressive steps themselves, so it is a course that every believer ends up taking in any case, because of the fact of the enemies of the Gospel. The linking or connecting phrase that is employed is 'AND THESE ARE THEY.'

We can not be overcomers UNLESS we are challenged by our enemies.

14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

There is no "I jumped to the last position." But the other believers didn't.

It is pointless to look at the fate of people who engage the enemy, often unknown to them, and then just toss them under the bus by threatening their eternal fate and failing to look at the enemy who has deceived or even captured them. That's just a very very poor way to treat challenged believers.

Every vile manipulator who stands in the pulpit stands there using the threat of hell against his adherents. Such manipulators are shown in many cases to be already captured and defeated and a bunch of phony manipulating religious actors themselves.

But for some odd reason the heady position of threatening another believers salvation appeals to the more vile aspects of religious peoples minds.

It's an enhancement to their own internal power monger. And it breeds other power mongers and a slew of divisions.

If believe = saved

then believe for a while = saved for a while.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said lest the believe and be saved.

Believe = saved

Likewise, believe for awhile = saved for a while

Believe for a while does not = never saved

Believe for a while = saved for awhile, then depart from the faith.


If believe for a while means "never saved", then why does the scripture plainly say depart from the faith.

They had faith in Christ in the first place in order to actually do the work of departing from the very faith that brought about their salvation.


Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



JLB

 

[jonahmano]

"I don't underestand what you mean by "could ever seen heaven"."

It didn't make sense. The temperature has nothing to do with your nonsensical statement.

I apologize for that

Please tell that to Paul, who wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Don't need to question Paul of what you think.

"Let others"??? As if I've not let anyone chime in??? What kind of power do you think I have??

I don't have any power. Since it's a debate going on here, I want to have others to come in to put their opinions. Again please chill we are going to stay together forever. Keep that in mind.

Yep. Sure do. But what does this response have to do with what I posted, which was this:
"Are you not aware of God's wrath against sin, for both believer and unbeliever?"

You didn't answer the question. I'm not sure of what you are aware of.

I'm truly aware of sin. but first I'm getting awareness of someone saying that devil will kill him just because he sins continually and and and that person will make to heaven. I think I need to do thorough google search or a separate question must be asked in this forum.

I recommend a review of ch 1 and 2 then. Satan definitely did "touch" him. And he suffered greatly for it. But I guess you were unaware of that.

I have very well read the book of Job and I know how the prophet got poked by Satan. My statement was God protects every believer and no satan can touch any believer without the knowledge of God and that's a sound doctrine and I don't think any one here will disagree with me

How do you know? Have you read his mind? I'm taking what he said literally. I have no idea how you understand it.

Why do we need to read the mind of God. All scriptures are inspired by God, it's breath of God. Now the matter is how we understand. I think you are misquoting what Paul said. I haven't heard anywhere like this where Paul is advising the Satan to kill the body of a believer who continually sins so that his soul can rest in peace at heaven.

OK, can you back up this charge with some substantiation? Throwing claims without any evidence or support doesn't go very far in my book. If my view can be refuted (not just disagreed with), then please proceed.

The charge itself is plane ridiculous. I'm listening this type of statement for first time. I need to do thorough google search and also ask advice of few preachers on this matter. I will deal with the later but I hope few guys who are fed with solid food can come on and touch on this

Why not? Paul wrote 1 Cor and was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Your argument is with them, not me.

My argument is with you because you misquoted the verse and not Paul or them.

I see these vague statements all the time from the non-OSASers, but they give no support for their claims. OK, it's ridiculous to you. So what? It seems to me that you are simply unaware of what Scripture actually says.

Very well placed but we don't misquote or twist the word of God. You guys take one word called "grace" from Ephesians 2:8 and feed fodder to the Satan but we don't do that. We look the bible in its totality.

Can you cite any verse that tells you in plain and unambiguous words that one can lose their salvation, new birth, eternal life, justification, or adoption as sons? If so, please proceed. If you can't, why in the world would you believe something that you cannot find support for in Scripture?

There was a thread started by me which was closed down after getting thousands of replies and there you have quotes. I don't want to bring them here over again. Else this thread will also be closed like that.

What "choice"? Please clarify. It seems to me that your view is colored by your being so unaware of eternal rewards, that you cannot understand how believers are motivated towards faithfulness. To you and your ilk, one must continue to do something, whether it's faith or good works. That is definitely not grace. So it seems to me that you don't understand eternal reward or grace.

My point is simple. We are backing a strong church with full ammunition. By grace we are saved we know that clearly. But only by prayer we can keep the demons out. And feeding fodder to Satan is nothing but being one of them.

God has 2 ways to motivate His children, just as human parents do. One is to reward obedience and the other is to punish disobedience. Unfortunately, your view has God killing His children who misbehave. Not at all Scriptural.

That's true but choice is with us. Even Judas Iscariot was God's disciple and he had plan for his good and not for his destruction but why is Judas in hell just because of his own choice. God hasn't any part in it.

I've given plenty of evidence from Scripture that God does not kill His children.

If my son wants to commit suicide then how can I be responsible for it. God has placed good and evil before us and He also told us to choose life and he for that he made another easy way by sending his own son to die on the cross and what's the God child's responsibility? - to sleep with an other man's woman and therefore according to you satan will kill his flesh and he will be united to his Father in Heaven and that's utterly ridiculous.

 

[JLB]

Israel will rule over the gentile nations in the millennium with Christ as king.

Please post the scripture about saints ruling over people.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul said so that his spirit may be saved, not that his spirit will be saved. Paul prayed to deliver him to satan

No, he said this: "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit maybe saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Cor 5:5 KJV

Please include the whole statement; "for the destruction of the flesh", obviously meaning his physical life. Not his soul.

That would either bring him back to God if he were a true believer, or would reveal he was never genuine beliver at all.

What makes you think that?

 

[jonahmano]

Paul said so that his spirit may be saved, not that his spirit will be saved. Paul prayed to deliver him to satan. That would either bring him back to God if he were a true believer, or would reveal he was never genuine beliver at all.

That sounds good

 

[veryberry]

Please post the scripture about saints ruling over people.

As far as Israel goes, it is clear. You can read the old testament and read their promises. As far as the body of Christ? We will not be ruling over people, but over angels in heavenly places.(1 Cor 6:3)

 

[jonahmano]

I'll chime in,

On turning the flesh over to satan, as FreeGrace has stated the persons body would be destroyed, ...looking at today's examples are all of the sexually transmitted diseases so rampant.

But the Corinthian man Paul was talking is not our first example found in the Word, ...Jesus turned Peter over to satan, and that is probably where Paul got it from, any time we are walking in the flesh we are walking in satans world and he has the right to touch us, because God is just He won't stop satan, because we are in his world, only limit him, like He did in Job's case, how many here have been whacked by satan and we come running back to Father very quickly, ...I certainly have, and Father allows it as part of our maturing process called sanctification, as we grow spiritually from babies to children to youth and finally adults, we learn what the results are if we don't crucify our flesh.

Great Going......

 

[Karl]

We are sanctified the moment we believe, (Roms 6-8). This process of maturing is called edification. We don't crucify ourselves. The holy Spirit baptized us into Jesus Christ, making us partakers of his death, burial, and resurrection. We are made dead to sin and alive unto God. Our old man was crucified through Jesus Christ and not by anything we do. The first few verses in Romans 6 is actually very great for eternal security, because all this was done when we put our faith in the FINISHED work of Christ. It is the faithfulness of Christ that saves us, not us....The moment we believed, we are risen with Christ and seated in heavenly places with him.

Okay....,

Then explain the need for spiritual maturity,

Babies,

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1Co 3:1

And,

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1Jn 2:12-14

Stated twice, the number in Scripture use for witness, like verily, verily. You don't have an argument with me, I humbly suggest you need to take it up with the Holy Spirit who Inspired Paul and John to write it.

We are set apart (from the world) the moment we are saved, that's why we are called the Church,ekklēsia - called out, ...sanctification is a process the we go through until we are with the Lord, which is the subject of Paul's letter to the Corinthians and he also stated to the Philippians,

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus Php 3:12

 

[Jesse]

Please post the scripture about saints ruling over people.


Thanks JLB

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Who is being reigned over?