Matthew 12:40

The crucifixion happened on a Thursday (5th day of the week) for the men on the road to Emmaus to have claimed on Sunday (the 8th / 1st day) "this is the third day since these things took place." Take into account the difference between a Hebrew day (sunset to sunset) and a modern day (midnight to midnight).

Luke 24:18–21 (AV)
18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The prophecies that say three days and three nights (Matthew 12:39-40) also say on the third day he will rise (Luke 24:7).

Passion+Week.jpg


I do not agree John...the 5th day in Hebrew culture would have spanned from our Wed evening to late Thurs, but I believe it was late Thurs (the passover meal - on the 14th which is Torah) to our Friday afternoon, but I have heard the arguments for the 5th day and I do have respect for this view.
 
JohnD,
Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, you probably won't know of any writing as requested in the OP as expanded on in post #43.
 
JohnD,
Since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, you probably won't know of any writing as requested in the OP as expanded on in post #43.

So in post 43 you state "...are basing their "common Jewish idiomatic language" assertion on? If it is "common" I should think that there would have to be examples of such usage in order to make the assertion that it is common"

And the answer is from other areas of scripture where the same reasoning is applied to this idea. For example:

Genesis 42:17-19 says "He put them all together into ward three days. (their sentence was to be three days which could be taken as three literal 24 hour periods....yet) And Joseph said unto them on the third day, This do, and live; ... go ye. ..." They were imprisoned on day one and let out on day three, which equals "three days"

2 Chronicles 10:5,12 says, "Come again unto me after three days. ... So ... all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day." To the Hebrews this meant the same thing.

See Esther 4 where it is written, 15 Then Esther bade them return Mordecai this answer,

16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and all of you fast for me, and neither eat nor drink for three days and three nights (some translations say “for three days; day and night)

She then says “I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

17 So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.

Now 5

5 Now it came to pass on the third day that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house. (Uh-oh! What happened to the beginning of day one and the third "night"?)

We see the same thing in Luke 1:59 which reads "on the eighth day." Yet the same Luke in 2:21 uses still another expression: "When eight days were accomplished." (Which could be taken to mean right after 8 full days appearing to cause contradiction to modern English readers). Yet this is ON the 8th day. Obviously 8 days being accomplished and on the 8th day mean the same thing!

There are many other related examples but this should suffice...scripture interpreting scripture is our final authority don't you agree?

brother Paul

.
 
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Sorry....right off the top of my head I forget which scholar points this out but anyhooo...

  • Ten times it was specified that the resurrection would take place on the "third day" (Mat.16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Mark 9:31; 10:34, Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7,46).
  • On five occasions they said, "in three days" (Matthew 26:61; 27:40, Mark 15:29, John 2:19-20), same thing.
  • Twice they used the phrase, "after three days" (Matthew 27:63, Mark 8:31) still can mean the same thing as shown in other places.
  • And one time only Jesus spoke of His death as "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40).
Therefore even the most basic sound interpretation requires interpreting the one occurrance of usage in light of the many direct atatements and inferences and not the many through the one.

Do any agree?

brother Paul
 
I do not agree John...the 5th day in Hebrew culture would have spanned from our Wed evening to late Thurs, but I believe it was late Thurs (the passover meal - on the 14th which is Torah) to our Friday afternoon, but I have heard the arguments for the 5th day and I do have respect for this view.

There is another factor involved. The text in Leviticus 23 is ambiguous enough for there to have been a debate between scholars / religious leaders as to the actual date the Seder meal was to be kept (14 Nisan or 15 Nisan). Official Seder was kept on 15 Nisan combining it with the feast of matzoh and firstfruits of Barley harvest (if memory serves). The unofficial Seder was sometimes called Galilean Seder and was accepted for the poor citizens and to reduce over crowding in Jerusalem.

This was an ingenious way God arranged the festive events so Jesus could actually keep Passover Seder and the next day be sacrificed as the Passover Lamb of God and buried in the tomb when the Matzoh feast is kep in which part of the harvest is planted (buried) for a new harvest.

I used to be a 4th day (Wednesday) advocate with the resurrection occurring at the sundown event of Saturday-Sunday until an atheist (of all people) pointed out what Cleopas said about it being the third day that day since these things took place (Luke 24:18-19).

Thursday--> Friday
Friday--> Saturday
Saturday --> Sunday
It falls about 12 hours short of a literal 72 hours but it fits not only 3 days 3 nights and on the 3rd day.
 
Remember, this thread is now in the A&T forum and the forum guidelines apply.

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The text in Leviticus 23 is ambiguous enough for there to have been a debate between scholars / religious leaders as to the actual date the Seder meal was to be kept (14 Nisan or 15 Nisan). Official Seder was kept on 15 Nisan combining it with the feast of matzoh and firstfruits of Barley harvest (if memory serves). The unofficial Seder was sometimes called Galilean Seder and was accepted for the poor citizens and to reduce over crowding in Jerusalem.

John sadly you have been misled by the later Rabbis on this point. The practice of holding a Temple seder on the 15th (the first day of Unleavened Bread) was a post Babylonian "Jewish" tradition and was not and never has been Torah. They only argue obscurity in the Levitical passage to PERSUADE people and to justify their anti-Torah position.

So now listen to the LORD and forget the Rabbis and modernist critics....

Exodus 12

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (and remember this was in each person’s house in Egypt)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses (plural), wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (that is the morning portion of the 14th…the evening and morning are one day); and that which remains of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

OKAY? So do you see what is the Torah? The Mitzvot of God not men? And verse 14 tells us

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

There was no justification at all to make this "tradition of men" (the 15th seder) binding....after Babylon it was done to provide a seder for the wayfarer or traveler who was away from there home and thus unable to keep it properly....

In His love

Paul
 
brother Paul,
re: "And the answer is from other areas of scripture..."


Scripture would be fine, but I'm not aware of any that shows where a daytime and/or a night time was said to have been involved with regard to an event where absolutely no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have actually transpired.
 
brother Paul,
re: "And the answer is from other areas of scripture..."


Scripture would be fine, but I'm not aware of any that shows where a daytime and/or a night time was said to have been involved with regard to an event where absolutely no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have actually transpired.

Of course not, that would be absurd, and thank God you were not asking for that in the part of Post 43 I quoted and addressed.
 
The text in Leviticus 23 is ambiguous enough for there to have been a debate between scholars / religious leaders as to the actual date the Seder meal was to be kept (14 Nisan or 15 Nisan). Official Seder was kept on 15 Nisan combining it with the feast of matzoh and firstfruits of Barley harvest (if memory serves). The unofficial Seder was sometimes called Galilean Seder and was accepted for the poor citizens and to reduce over crowding in Jerusalem.

John sadly you have been misled by the later Rabbis on this point. The practice of holding a Temple seder on the 15th (the first day of Unleavened Bread) was a post Babylonian "Jewish" tradition and was not and never has been Torah. They only argue obscurity in the Levitical passage to PERSUADE people and to justify their anti-Torah position.

So now listen to the LORD and forget the Rabbis and modernist critics....

Exodus 12

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, in the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. (and remember this was in each person’s house in Egypt)

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses (plural), wherein they shall eat it.

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (that is the morning portion of the 14th…the evening and morning are one day); and that which remains of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

OKAY? So do you see what is the Torah? The Mitzvot of God not men? And verse 14 tells us

And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever.

There was no justification at all to make this "tradition of men" (the 15th seder) binding....after Babylon it was done to provide a seder for the wayfarer or traveler who was away from there home and thus unable to keep it properly....

In His love

Paul
There is another factor involved. The text in Leviticus 23 is ambiguous enough for there to have been a debate between scholars / religious leaders as to the actual date the Seder meal was to be kept (14 Nisan or 15 Nisan). Official Seder was kept on 15 Nisan combining it with the feast of matzoh and firstfruits of Barley harvest (if memory serves). The unofficial Seder was sometimes called Galilean Seder and was accepted for the poor citizens and to reduce over crowding in Jerusalem.

This was an ingenious way God arranged the festive events so Jesus could actually keep Passover Seder and the next day be sacrificed as the Passover Lamb of God and buried in the tomb when the Matzoh feast is kep in which part of the harvest is planted (buried) for a new harvest.

I used to be a 4th day (Wednesday) advocate with the resurrection occurring at the sundown event of Saturday-Sunday until an atheist (of all people) pointed out what Cleopas said about it being the third day that day since these things took place (Luke 24:18-19).

Thursday--> Friday
Friday--> Saturday
Saturday --> Sunday
It falls about 12 hours short of a literal 72 hours but it fits not only 3 days 3 nights and on the 3rd day.

The logical problem with this hypothesis is that it has Jesus observing Passover on one date, and then fulfilling Passover on the other date. If, as you suggest, the latter date is but a 'tradition of men', then Jesus never fulfilled His purpose as our Passover Lamb on the biblically correct day.

Is this reasonable? Act 18:4
 
So in post 43 you state "...are basing their "common Jewish idiomatic language" assertion on? If it is "common" I should think that there would have to be examples of such usage in order to make the assertion that it is common"

And the answer is from other areas of scripture where the same reasoning is applied to this idea. For example:

Genesis 42:17-19 says "He put them all together into ward three days. (their sentence was to be three days which could be taken as three literal 24 hour periods....yet) And Joseph said unto them on the third day, This do, and live; ... go ye. ..." They were imprisoned on day one and let out on day three, which equals "three days"

2 Chronicles 10:5,12 says, "Come again unto me after three days. ... So ... all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day." To the Hebrews this meant the same thing.

See Esther 4 where it is written, 15 Then Esther bade them return Mordecai this answer,

16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and all of you fast for me, and neither eat nor drink for three days and three nights (some translations say “for three days; day and night)

She then says “I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

17 So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.

Now 5

5 Now it came to pass on the third day that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king's house, over against the king's house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house. (Uh-oh! What happened to the beginning of day one and the third "night"?)

We see the same thing in Luke 1:59 which reads "on the eighth day." Yet the same Luke in 2:21 uses still another expression: "When eight days were accomplished." (Which could be taken to mean right after 8 full days appearing to cause contradiction to modern English readers). Yet this is ON the 8th day. Obviously 8 days being accomplished and on the 8th day mean the same thing!

There are many other related examples but this should suffice...scripture interpreting scripture is our final authority don't you agree?

brother Paul

.
The thing is with the eighth day circumcision, it is clearly defined in Moses' Law. It is accomplished when it is done in the eighth day, not after the eighth day.
Lev 12:3 and in the eighth day is the flesh of his foreskin circumcised;
Yet in the very next verse the 'in' would not be accomplished until after the days were completed.
Lev 12:4 and thirty and three days she doth abide in the blood of her cleansing; against any holy thing she doth not come, and unto the sanctuary she doth not go in, till the fulness of the days of her cleansing.

So some things can be accomplished anytime in the last day and others were a full last day before they were accomplished.
The Luke scriptures about circumcision are in complete accordance with the meaning of the Law.
So I don't think the Luke scriptures really help us with a full three days or a partial third day.
Est 4:16 `Go, gather all the Jews who are found in Shushan, and fast for me, and do not eat nor drink three days, by night and by day; also I and my young women do fast likewise, and so I go in unto the king, that is not according to law, and when I have perished--I have perished.'
With Esther, she is fasting for three days and nights. It doesn't say that she would go into the king after this fast. If I had been in her shoes, I would have gone in while the people were still fasting. It never says that she stopped fasting on/in the third day. She made a banquet for the king and Haman but did she partake?
Gen 42:17 and he removeth them unto charge three days.
Gen 42:18 And Joseph saith unto them on the third day, `This do and live; God I fear!

This scripture doesn't say anything about them being sentenced to three days in prison. It simply says that Joseph put them together under guard and he spoke his determined test of them to see if they were spies. Surely, the sentence for being spies would have been far more serious than three days under guard v18, says death.

This one had me really confused but it didn't really make sense to me.
2Ch 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me after [H5750] three days. And the people departed.
H5750
עד עוד
‛ôd ‛ôd
ode, ode
From H5749; properly iteration or continuance; used only adverbially (with or without preposition), again, repeatedly, still, more: - again, X all life long, at all, besides, but, else, further (-more), henceforth, (any) longer, (any) more (-over), X once, since, (be) still, when, (good, the) while (having being), (as, because, whether, while) yet (within).

That word never means after. I searched two interlinears, Blue Letter says that the KJV never translated that word as 'after', obviously they did. The more I searched the more obvious it became that it is a mistranslation. NASB, says 'in' three days, but that doesn't appear to be correct either, but much, much closer. Here's Young's
2Ch 10:5 And he saith unto them, `Yet three days--then return ye unto me;' and the people go.
2Ch 10:12 And Jeroboam cometh in, and all the people, unto Rehoboam on the third day, as the king spake,
saying, `Return unto me on the third day.'
So basically he was repeating himself, Come again, again three days. Now it makes sense.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5750.htm
www.scripture4all.org
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5750&t=KJV





 
Great points Deb, thanks...

Synthesis when you said "The logical problem with this hypothesis is that it has Jesus observing Passover on one date, and then fulfilling Passover on the other date. If, as you suggest, the latter date is but a 'tradition of men', then Jesus never fulfilled His purpose as our Passover Lamb on the biblically correct day." I can only assume you were speaking to me, so I am going to respond.

Jesus kept all the traditions the Jewish people were familiar with and required of in that day. For example, He attended synagogue "as was His custom" (not Torah), observed the Feast of Dedication (Channukah) which is not Torah, and more but His seder and the following crucifixion were on the same Hebrew day. By then many (on fact most) had been convinced and enculturated to go to the Temple for what the Pharisees had implemented for 100s of years, so for them to see and associate (for He came for the House of Israel first) Him being slaughtered on that afternoon represented the Passover lamb for them. If He had been slaughtered the evening before it would not have made sense to THEM. But the fulfillment of that role is apparent by why He died and shed His blood not when (so that the angel of death will pass us over in the judgment, His blood marking us out as under the redemption of God), He was also our atonement but none take issue that He was not slain on Yom Kippur? He was also our trespass offering (which could be made every day). It indeed was about the purpose not the moment on which the type was slain.

Paul
 
The logical problem with this hypothesis is that it has Jesus observing Passover on one date, and then fulfilling Passover on the other date. If, as you suggest, the latter date is but a 'tradition of men', then Jesus never fulfilled His purpose as our Passover Lamb on the biblically correct day.

Is this reasonable? Act 18:4

I said it was a brilliant plan of God to fulfill both. Tradition of man were your words not mine.
 
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning (that is the morning portion of the 14th…the evening and morning are one day); and that which remains of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
??
This is what I understand, please explain how this differs from what you understand the scriptures to say.

If the 14th were on a Thursday, the evening of the 14th would be Wed. night and the morning would be Thursday.
Torah says the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover was eaten, was at night on the 15th.

Lev 23:5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Yehovah;
Lev 23:6 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;
Lev 23:7 on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work;


Confirmed by...
Deu 16:4 and there is not seen with thee leaven in all thy border seven days, and there doth not remain of the flesh which thou dost sacrifice at evening on the first day till morning.

Lev 23:5 between the evenings is the same as Deu. 16:4 at the evening
Lev23:6 and 7 speaks of the seven days and the first day of the seven days as the first day of unleavened bread
Deu 16:4 is the same first day of the seven days of unleavened bread.
http://www.karaite-korner.org/passover.shtml#when_was_passover
On the above site, written by a Torah/Tanach observant Karaite Jew. Karaites do not observe the Talmud/oral law/ Rabbical/second temple, is an explanation with scripture for understanding the 'between the evenings, evening' etc.

The says the same thing in the Exodus 12 scriptures that they ate the Passover in the night after the Passover was sacrificed.

Jesus and the disciples at the Passover (Last Supper) on the night of the 14th and He was sacrificed between the evenings of the 14th as the Passover Lamb. In the NT, called the day of preparation.
 
This is what I understand, please explain how this differs from what you understand the scriptures to say.

If the 14th were on a Thursday, the evening of the 14th would be Wed. night and the morning would be Thursday.
Torah says the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover was eaten, was at night on the 15th.

Lev 23:5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Yehovah;
Lev 23:6 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;
Lev 23:7 on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work;


Wow! Sis...this is an awful translation (unleavened things? Matzo is bread not things)...

Okay here is your misunderstanding..."on the 14th, between the evenings" is all the 14th. THAT IS the only Passover and Passover is not part of the feast of unleavened bread. Unleavened Bread begins on the next day (the 15th) and continues 7 days. So Passover plus Unleavened Bread in Torah is 8 days in all. The first day and last day of UB are a Sabbath (Passover is NOT a Sabbath)....

"IF" is a huge word for only two letters....the 14th began on what WE WOULD CALL Thursday evening at Sundown and the following daytime period, what WE WOULD CALL Friday day was still the 14th and still the Passover...not either of the Sabbaths, neither the first day of UB nor the 7th day Sabbath, which in that year both fell on the same day date (the 15th)

Paul
 
This is what I understand, please explain how this differs from what you understand the scriptures to say.

If the 14th were on a Thursday, the evening of the 14th would be Wed. night and the morning would be Thursday.
Torah says the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover was eaten, was at night on the 15th.

Lev 23:5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Yehovah;
Lev 23:6 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat;
Lev 23:7 on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work;


Wow! Sis...this is an awful translation (unleavened things? Matzo is bread not things)...

Okay here is your misunderstanding..."on the 14th, between the evenings" is all the 14th. THAT IS the only Passover and Passover is not part of the feast of unleavened bread. Unleavened Bread begins on the next day (the 15th) and continues 7 days. So Passover plus Unleavened Bread in Torah is 8 days in all. The first day and last day of UB are a Sabbath (Passover is NOT a Sabbath)....

"IF" is a huge word for only two letters....the 14th began on what WE WOULD CALL Thursday evening at Sundown and the following daytime period, what WE WOULD CALL Friday day was still the 14th and still the Passover...not either of the Sabbaths, neither the first day of UB nor the 7th day Sabbath, which in that year both fell on the same day date (the 15th)

Paul
That's Young's Literal Translation - it's not dressed up pretty. :kiss
So as far as the Passover sacrifice being the 14th and the first day of Unleavened Bread is the 15th we are in agreement.
 
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That's Young's Literal Translation - it's not dressed up pretty. :kiss
So as far as the Passover sacrifice being the 14th and the first day of Unleavened Bread is the 15th we are in agreement.

Okay, sorry, I had thought we were on the same page with that and then I must have misunderstood
 
And one time only Jesus spoke of His death as "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40).

Ah, but He spoke of more than just His death and resurrection in Matt 14:20, IMO. Don't forget the rejection and suffering He spoke of too:

Matt 12:40 reads as follows:

Matthew 12:40 (LEB) For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Notice first that it say "just as".
Then notice that it doesn't say Jesus will be dead three days and three nights. It says "in the heart of the Earth".

I don't think He meant just death. It included death, sure. But also included suffering.
Then compare:

Mark 8:31 (LEB) And he began to teach them that it was necessary for the Son of Man to suffer many things and to be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes,

[before He was killed, He suffered! Think when (what day, at night) He was rejected and began to suffer many things prior to His death.]

and to be killed, and after three days to rise.

Anyone that counts up days and nights beginning with His death does not have the correct starting point for the equation, IMO.
 
Yeah! If three entire days and three entire nights is what was meant, then He rose on the fourth day and that would mean He was incorrect and the other scriptures (comments by the Apostle's) are untrustworthy. But more importantly, the point He was making was that at the preaching of Jonah Ninevah repented but one greater then Jonah was here (Messiah) and they would not repent.
 
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