atpollard
Member
You answered yourself and they are the followers of Jesus that have poured themselves out and have been indwelt with the Holy spirit. (John 10:27-29)
Sorry, sometimes we Reformed Pentecostals just have to dance and shout.
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You answered yourself and they are the followers of Jesus that have poured themselves out and have been indwelt with the Holy spirit. (John 10:27-29)
OK, now that we've seen the entire chapter, is there any explanation to go along with it?How about a new player to chat with. Since I like to look at context, let's throw up all of John 10 [NIV] for reference:
The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[fn] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[fn] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[fn]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’[fn]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.
I wasn't addressing conditions prior to being given eternal life, although I did mention the condition was given back in v.9, where Jesus equated Himself as a gate to the sheep pen, and those who "enter through Me" are saved, a clear reference to faith in Christ.I'm not part of the "conditional security crowd", so I'll pass on those parts. Just some friendly conversation for clarification of terms and ideas.
How do we know from John 10:28 that there are no conditions prior to being given eternal life? I am only pointing out the limitations of a single verse of scripture.
Just what the Bible means by these very words. They are biblical words.I would like to hear some words that tend to get slung around broken down clearer if you feel like it. You mention "saved" and "believing the gospel" and "eternal life", and I'd like a better understanding of what YOU mean by these words.
Sorry, but none of these questions has any relevance to the point of the OP.For example, "eternal life" can't mean never dying, because people die all of the time. So I can't already have THAT sort of eternal life.
What is "believe" and what exactly do we need to believe?
What part does faith play and what is this "dead faith" that James warns about? (James 2:17,26)
And...v.28 would have said something like this:Respectfully, that isn't really worded as a condition in that passage. It would be a condition if it said something closer to "You are my sheep if you hear my voice and follow me" which fits with a verse like: John 8:31 [NKJV] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."
How does the whole chapter form the understanding of v.28?
Thanks.
Respectfully, that isn't really worded as a condition in that passage. It would be a condition if it said something closer to "You are my sheep if you hear my voice and follow me" which fits with a verse like: John 8:31 [NKJV] Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed."
In this case, it reads more like a simple statement of fact about His sheep. Jesus has a personal relationship with his people (we hear His voice and He knows us) and because of that relationship, we follow Him (unlike the goats or wolves in sheeps clothing or those who are not His sheep).
John 10:26 [NKJV] But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
I'm not sure about this. I believe it is our human condition that requires anything beyond blind faith in Him, blind trust and security in Him. If our hearts were trusting, we would give ourselves without reservation and yield to Him without Him having to prove Himself to us.Note also that the belief that God calls us to is not a blind faith ...
For how long does the shepherd go after His one sheep?
Do you have any thoughts on why Jesus used the exact number 100 to illustrate His flock of sheep?
Notice the present tense "HAS" regarding eternal life.
This thread is not about the conditions for receiving this eternal life. Jesus made clear in v.9 how one is saved, which means receiving eternal life. That's not the discussion.So now let's look at your 'smoking gun' verse and talk about what it says and what it does not say: John 10:28
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish" ... So what it says is that Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep. This verse is silent on whether or not there are any conditions for receiving this eternal life.
The proof is that Jesus was clear about the end result of receiving eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH.One could assume either way from just this one verse and the chapter at large is not really about salvation directly. Just to point out the obvious Arminian interpretation for this part, what in this verse proves that it is not those who persevere to the end who are 'His sheep' and given eternal life (since the end is where eternal life is technically received) and then they 'shall never perish'.
Jesus didn't say "Satan and other people". He said "no one". Which is equivalent to "no person". If He had said "no one else", then the conditional security folk would have a point, but He didn't say that, and neither do they have a point."No one will snatch them out of my hand." ... So it says that Satan and other people cannot take your salvation from you. How do you propose to disprove the often articulated claim that the sheep has the free will to jump out of Jesus' hand?
It's great to have you here! I always appreciate your wisdom.dirtfarmer here
I will jump in the fray.
In order for a person to receive salvation, what does scripture say? That we must die and be made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:5, " Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved). This verse states that before salvation we were dead. How is it that we were dead? physically or spiritually. We were dead spiritually.
Our spirit was subject to our soul, the part that is worldly. When we believed that Christ died to pay our sin debt, the Spirit witnessed to our spirit that we are children of God( Romans 8:16). It was at that time we were made alive(Spiritually) in Christ and we received salvation. The thing that most don't understand or know about salvation is that there is 3 parts to salvation.
1. we received salvation from the penalty of sin. We were no longer subject to spiritual death.
2. we received salvation from the power of sin. Sin no longer reigned in our life, Christ does.
3. At the restoration of all things, we will receive salvation from the presence of sin, and will forever be in the presence of our savior.
At the point of salvation, there was a relationship established with God between Him and believers. That relations is nor has ever been in jeopardy, it was established for eternity. Along with that relationship a fellowship was established. When a believer stumbles and falls into a fault, it is the fellowship that is hindered, not the relationship. The relationship was, is, sealed with the earnest of the Spirit that was given to us when we believed.
All sin has been judged on the cross, God's wrath was satisfied by the blood (life) of Christ and now there is no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus. Just as the sins that the children of Israel committed, after their being removed from Egypt by the blood on the door post, broke fellowship with God, they never ceased to be God's chosen people. The sacrifices were for restoration of fellowship, not for restoration of relationship( being God's chosen people). So it is with the believer, once that relationship has been established, it is never broken. But fellowship is broken and must be restored by our confessing to God that we have sinned as did the prodigal son in Luke.
It means "currently" from the perspective of the writer.What does tense mean for the NT Greek verbs? What does the present tense 'has' mean?
This link will answer your questions:Also, what are the meanings of the tenses in this verse: 'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life'?
The present tenses are equivalent in Greek and English.The Greek tenses have different emphases to the English tenses.
Oz
which is lost until he finds it?
Sure it does. He searches "until He finds it".The scripture doesn't mention how long.
Thus, I asked for your thoughts on it. It's my thought that the number 100 represents fullness/completeness in Jewish mindset. i.e., Jesus returns when the full number of sheep are found. 100% of them. That's the point.The scripture doesn't mention why Jesus used the exact number 100.
If I show you scripture and you believe, then what are my "thoughts" going to matter.
Umm, the passage doesn't say they are being removed from being in Him. The branches are "taken away". Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?If a person is removed from being "in Him",
Again, the verse doesn't say they are "removed from being in Him". The branches are "taken away". They wither and are burned in fire.If a person is removed from being "in Him", then cast into the fire and burned, does this represent salvation?
If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?
Umm, the passage doesn't say they are being removed from being in Him. The branches are "taken away". Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?
Clearly, the Text says Every branch is already clean because of the Word, not because of their fruit production. Yet, that verse is avoided by you every time.
There's no real justification for thinking this means they are cast into Hell's fire or eternal fire, just because it says fire. Why add that idea to the Text???
That's all good. The first time I did a special I was tagged a Bapticostal.
Sorry, sometimes we Reformed Pentecostals just have to dance and shout.
Where do you think Christians go when they die/wither?
Okay. I agree.Into the fire and are burned.
If the fruitful branches represent those who are saved, they how can the branches that are removed and cast into the fire, represent the same thing?
AMEN, GLORYThis thread is not about the conditions for receiving this eternal life. Jesus made clear in v.9 how one is saved, which means receiving eternal life. That's not the discussion.
The ONLY THING that is at issue is whether there are specific conditions or requirements AFTER receiving eternal life for NEVER PERISHING. And Jesus gave none. But the loss of salvation view demands that there are a number of conditions or requirements that must be made OR the one who received eternal life WILL PERISH. In direct contradiction with Jesus' words.
The proof is that Jesus was clear about the end result of receiving eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH.
Jesus didn't say "Satan and other people". He said "no one". Which is equivalent to "no person". If He had said "no one else", then the conditional security folk would have a point, but He didn't say that, and neither do they have a point.
When Jesus said "no one" He was including the believer him/herself.