Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Chopper]

I'll agree with the last part of the last sentence. My arguments against the TULIP deal with the fact that not one of them is based in Scripture, but rather on inferences.

I will post the Scriptures later, when I get home from the trip that I'm on.

 

[Chopper]

So you don't see an issue with God not being sovereign enough to have foreknowledge of those who would believe? That's what Calvinism says, that somehow God didn't know what was going to happen, and in that state of unknowing He chose to elect some, but leave others without a chance of belief.

You know for yourself that God is a just and holy God. To confine some under the power of satan, then not allow a way of escape, and then judge them on what they could not escape? Is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Isaiah 48:1-11
1 Hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came from the waters of Judah, who swear by the name of the LORD and confess the God of Israel, but not in truth or right.
2 For they call themselves after the holy city, and stay themselves on the God of Israel; the LORD of hosts is his name.
3 "The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass,
5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.'
6 "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known.
7 They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Hi friend Nathan. God is not willing that ANY PERISH. I like John....
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

I see predestination and Election of almighty God, as choosing a remnant of solid Believers in the Old and New Covenants to represent God in all dispensations of the history on mankind. God chose when those Elect Believers would be born, and where they would live to witness the workings of God in each generation.

Because of John 3:16 and other Scriptures that state that God is not willing that any should perish, His Elect followers are Evangelists who go out and preach repentance. This is what I call the "General Call of the Gospel". The purpose is that mankind will have a choice as to accept God's offer of Salvation or reject it.

 

[GodsGrace]

We were all sinners, who were saved by grace.


26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27

Now that we are saved, we are no longer sinners, whom Christ is seperated from, but rather we are joined ti Him, and are one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


JLB

Hi JLB

This concept of being a sinner is something I've thought about a lot.

Are we a sinner, or are we a saint?

The bible tells me I'm a saint, by being at the foot of the cross.

I feel like a sinner.
Why? Because God is so pure that anything besides that makes His light shine on me and the sin is visible compared to His goodness and perfection.

But am I a sinner?

What does sinner mean?
One sins because he is a sinner. This person cannot be born again because his nature is to sin.

I, OTOH, am a sinner because I sin. I sin every day most probably - but I am not a sinner by nature.

By nature I am a believer and member of the Kingdom. And I sin.

Since sinless perfection does not exist, IMHO.

This is how I've reconciled the two types of sinners.

Comment?

(iow: Do i sin because I'm a sinner
Or am I a sinner because I sin?)

 

[Nathan]

Hi JLB

This concept of being a sinner is something I've thought about a lot.

Are we a sinner, or are we a saint?

The bible tells me I'm a saint, by being at the foot of the cross.

I feel like a sinner.
Why? Because God is so pure that anything besides that makes His light shine on me and the sin is visible compared to His goodness and perfection.

But am I a sinner?

What does sinner mean?
One sins because he is a sinner. This person cannot be born again because his nature is to sin.

I, OTOH, am a sinner because I sin. I sin every day most probably - but I am not a sinner by nature.

By nature I am a believer and member of the Kingdom. And I sin.

Since sinless perfection does not exist, IMHO.

This is how I've reconciled the two types of sinners.

Comment?

(iow: Do i sin because I'm a sinner
Or am I a sinner because I sin?)

It really is all on the point of view of ourselves. When we look at ourselves through our own eyes we see sin and a sinner. When we read how God sees us we see righteousness and a saint.

The only time it really matters(it does help other times ), is when your studying the Bible. Misunderstanding will lead to misinterpretation of passages.

I too see my sin quite often. There are times I feel very much like a "sinner". But when I do look at myself from Gods point of view it's breathtaking. Peace really comes on me and a thankfulness that cannot be spoken.

It is not a mishap that Paul often called the readers saints. This ties into the 'having the mind of Christ'. Christ often spoke of how His Father viewed Him.

 

[Nathan]

Hi friend Nathan. God is not willing that ANY PERISH. I like John....
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

I see predestination and Election of almighty God, as choosing a remnant of solid Believers in the Old and New Covenants to represent God in all dispensations of the history on mankind. God chose when those Elect Believers would be born, and where they would live to witness the workings of God in each generation.

Because of John 3:16 and other Scriptures that state that God is not willing that any should perish, His Elect followers are Evangelists who go out and preach repentance. This is what I call the "General Call of the Gospel". The purpose is that mankind will have a choice as to accept God's offer of Salvation or reject it.

I see. You see three groups of people then?

I am pretty sure the WCF talks about that. Which is what TULIP is based off if I'm not mistaken.

 

[GodsGrace]

It really is all on the point of view of ourselves. When we look at ourselves through our own eyes we see sin and a sinner. When we read how God sees us we see righteousness and a saint.

The only time it really matters(it does help other times ), is when your studying the Bible. Misunderstanding will lead to misinterpretation of passages.

I too see my sin quite often. There are times I feel very much like a "sinner". But when I do look at myself from Gods point of view it's breathtaking. Peace really comes on me and a thankfulness that cannot be spoken.

It is not a mishap that Paul often called the readers saints. This ties into the 'having the mind of Christ'. Christ often spoke of how His Father viewed Him.

This is getting off topic, maybe.
I'm not even sure God sees me.
I believe He sees His Son.
Can't post scripture right now. There are passages that speak to how we are clothed in Christ. One is in Romans, also Ephesians, I believe.

I believe God looks at me and sees His Son.
I believe He loves me because I love His Son.

You know how you tend to like persons that like your child?
That would be the concept.

 

[Chopper]

I see. You see three groups of people then?

I am pretty sure the WCF talks about that. Which is what TULIP is based off if I'm not mistaken.

Actually I only see two. The Elect, who are predetermined by God to be His Remnant of Believers, also called His Bride. And those who come to the Faith thru the General Call of the Gospel. The Elect cannot loose their Salvation, but the GCOTG folk can.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually I only see two. The Elect, who are predetermined by God to be His Remnant of Believers, also called His Bride. And those who come to the Faith thru the General Call of the Gospel. The Elect cannot loose their Salvation, but the GCOTG folk can.

Hi Chopper
I like how you've reconciled the two categories of saved persons in the bible.
Considering persons such as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, Mary - has always been a problem for me because it always seemed to me that they could NOT say No. It does seem to me that it takes away their free will, which I very much believe in.

But are you speaking about persons such as these?
I'm not sure...

 

[Nathan]

This is getting off topic, maybe.
I'm not even sure God sees me.
I believe He sees His Son.
Can't post scripture right now. There are passages that speak to how we are clothed in Christ. One is in Romans, also Ephesians, I believe.

I believe God looks at me and sees His Son.
I believe He loves me because I love His Son.

You know how you tend to like persons that like your child?
That would be the concept.

Oh, He see's you

Read Psalms 32, 33, & 34

He does see you through His Son, but never think He does not see you as a special individual.

 

[Nathan]

Actually I only see two. The Elect, who are predetermined by God to be His Remnant of Believers, also called His Bride. And those who come to the Faith thru the General Call of the Gospel. The Elect cannot loose their Salvation, but the GCOTG folk can.

I was including those who do not believe, ever, as a third. ;)

 

[Nathan]

Actually I only see two. The Elect, who are predetermined by God to be His Remnant of Believers, also called His Bride. And those who come to the Faith thru the General Call of the Gospel. The Elect cannot loose their Salvation, but the GCOTG folk can.

I would like to hear, when you have time, how you arrive at there being two categories of believers but one Gospel.

Do the elect not have to believe, but the 'general' ones do?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh, He see's you

Read Psalms 32, 33, & 34

He does see you through His Son, but never think He does not see you as a special individual.

Thanks Nathan.
You're very encouraging.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, but remember that Israel had hundreds of years of history with God before the Gentiles in Christ entered the picture. It is this history that Paul is writing about in Ephesians 1

Yet God dedicated an entire Book in the OT to make sure that everyone knew that GOD CHOSE a Moabite woman to be the grandmother of King David because the seed for Eve and promise for Abraham was NEVER EVER for the Jews only. (Gen 18:18, Gen 22:18, Gen 26:4, Psa 72:17, Isa 56:7, Jer 3:17, Dan 7:14, Mat 28:19, Mar 13:10, Luk 24:47, Gal 3:8, Rev 15:4) ... Genesis to Revelation!

Matthew 1:5 even lists Ruth in the genealogy of the Messiah.

 

[Nathan]

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:1 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:1 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

Paul does explain how the two have been made one in chapter two. The point is that he pointed out the differences between them in Chapter one. Look at the post I posted on Ephesians 1 and notice I put one group in red text and the other in blue text. Paul refers to the other group as you and your. Now look at the verse you just mentioned, chapter 2 verse 11.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2:11-13 NKJ)

Notice what Paul said about the "you" group. They were Gentiles in the flesh. The contrast here is between Jew and Gentile. The "You" group is the Gentiles and the "Us" groups is the Jews.

It may very well seem like I am looking at it in order to fit my interpretation. I know it can happen, but I avoid it as much as possible by trying to view things from all different angles just so those types of beliefs can be avoided.

Jesus the Christ was not just Paul's Lord, nor just the Jew's Lord, He is Lord of all who believe. So when Paul says "our" in verse 3 he is speaking to all in Christ. God does not call just Jews to be holy, He requires it of all believers, so "we" in verse 4 is speaking to all in Christ.

Verse 6 is a key verse not to be lightly looked at. "He hath made us accepted in the beloved". Who is the beloved? Christ of course. But also, the beloved are the natural branches - "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated". The beloved are the nation of Israel, so if Paul was speaking of himself and the Jews, then there would be no need for him to say they were accepted - the Jews already are - it is the Gentiles that were 'accepted' by God.

All that Paul says is directed toward the readers, for their edification, not for bragging or to separate Jew and Gentile. Paul tried very hard to continually let Gentiles know that they are apart of the family of God, wild and not by nature, but apart of the family nonetheless. That is why he switches over in the second half, to bring to remembrance how they were at one time separated - but were then brought in.

 

[JLB]

Are we a sinner, or are we a saint?

You are a saint, a child of God, who has been washed and cleansed, by His precious blood.

• You are joined to Christ, and are one with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• A sinner is separate from Christ.

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27

• A sinner is someone who practices sin, as a lifestyle.

We all struggle with sin and weakness's in our life, however He gives us grace to get free from those things and overcome them, God knows I struggled for years, but got free by confessing my sin to Him, and repenting and learning to be consecrated and set apart unto Him.

Some of my deliverance came from me getting on my face and crying out to God, and some came from other's who worked with me one on one, and by the Spirit helped me get free from iniquities, [some call them generational curses] which are passed down from the father's to the children.

This is especially true with various forms of idolatry in the family line, which in my case was the masonic lodge, which has it's own set of familiar ungodly traits associated with it.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:4-6

The same way He paid the price for our sins, He also paid the price for our iniquities, and for our healing, and for our peace, for everything that pertains to life and godliness.

The same way we receive the forgiveness of sins, is the same way we are healed of sickness, is the same way we are delivered from iniquities... by faith.

An iniquity is different from a sin, in that it is an inward weakness towards a certain sin.

Like a bruise is under the skin, it is deeper than the surface.

A sin is an outward expression of an inward iniquity.

One definition is: Primarily, it denotes "not an action, but the character of an action" (Oehler), and is so distinguished from "sin" (chaTTa'th).



JLB

 

[Nathan]

One way to understand the 'predestination' and 'election' of the Gentiles(into the faith of Abraham) is to see the example of Jacob and Esau.

Jacob is a 'type' of the natural branches of Israel. Esau is a 'type' of the wild branches of the Gentiles.

*Hebrews 11:20
By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau.

Genesis 25:27
When the boys grew up, Esau was a skillful hunter(wild), a man of the field, while Jacob was a quiet man(natural), dwelling in tents.

Isaiah 56:1-8
Thus says the LORD:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will surely separate me from his people”;
and let not the eunuch say,
“Behold, I am a dry tree.”

For thus says the LORD:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,

I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.

“And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant—

these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer;
their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house shall be called a house of prayer
for all peoples.”

The Lord GOD,
who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares,
“I will gather yet others to him
besides those already gathered.”


Romans 9:10-13
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

We find that God constantly 'looked' on the Gentiles with 'hate' - disgust. However, it was the plan(foreknowledge of predestination for the purpose of election) for the Gentiles to become the 'servants' of the Jews in order to show God's mercy.

Romans 9:11-14
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

We see that Issac foretold of this very thing also;

Genesis 27:28-40
Esau said to his father, “Have you but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father.” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:
“Behold, away from the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be,
and away from the dew of heaven on high.
By your sword you shall live,
and you shall serve your brother;
but then you grow restless
you shall break his yoke from your neck.”

We also see God reiterating this in His love for Jacob, and His distaste for Esau, yet His bringing in of the nations into the faith of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. When God brings in the Gentiles(Esau) He detests their heritage and their ways, yet when He brings them into the family of God, He gives them a new name and they become one with Israel.

Malachi 1:1-5
The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’”Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”

 

[JLB]

By nature I am a believer and member of the Kingdom. And I sin.

Since sinless perfection does not exist, IMHO.

This is how I've reconciled the two types of sinners.

Comment?

(iow: Do i sin because I'm a sinner
Or am I a sinner because I sin?)

Most will find fault with my answer, so I will post the scripture, then point to what the scripture says, however I will view this question from the standpoint of righteous, then from the standpoint of sin and sinner.

Hopefully we can discuss this and reconcile this from the scriptures, for there is reconciling to be done.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7


Please note that this scripture does not say... He who is righteous, practices righteousness.

It says... He who practices righteousness is righteous.




JLB

 

[Nathan]

atpollard

Do you have any comments as to why the WCF does not reference any OT passages when they talk about the inability of some to believe in Christ? They do list some OT passages for the fact that God has to draw the person before they can believe, but nothing in how God draws a distinction between those He calls and those He chooses not to.

Seems to me, that if God foretold of His plan throughout the OT then there would be some indication that there would be some humans who would never be able to believe - not elected.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Why do some fall away?
(I am not disagreeing, I just acknowledge the fact that not everyone who hears the gospel and starts the race will finish.)
The WCF offers one possible explanation, how do you explain the fact?

Were those who believed for a while 'called'?
Were those who believed for a while and fell away 'elected'?
(Luke 8:13, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:19)

The three passages you chose are perfect, in that they hold the answer. I prefer the parable of sowing seed is my favorite here and that they have no root is perfectly correct. It is difficult not to form an opinion and I, like everyone have one on this.

Some believe, had they died in the excited portion of their lives, they would have gone to Heaven except for the day they fell away. I, however, believe they were never saved and base this opinion on the truth that God knew before Creation they would not be saved.

I find it an exercise in futility to debate this point when Jesus sent us, some to plant seeds, some to water and some to harvest. God calls all of humanity to Himself (Matt 22:14) and a handful are chosen. I do understand that and the other passages on the matter to mean most will reject believing and will choose instead the delusion (2Thes 2:9-11) God has sent.

We must remember that to us the delusion is nothing new because of several scriptures reminding us that a thousand years is as a day unto the LORD. My point is, when Jesus arrived and left, we were and are in those Last Days. Were the Talking Heads of that not also deluded?

 

[JLB]

The three passages you chose are perfect, in that they hold the answer. I prefer the parable of sowing seed is my favorite here and that they have no root is perfectly correct. It is difficult not to form an opinion and I, like everyone have one on this.

Some believe, had they died in the excited portion of their lives, they would have gone to Heaven except for the day they fell away. I, however, believe they were never saved and base this opinion on the truth that God knew before Creation they would not be saved.

Please understand what these on the rock represent.

"Falling away" is not some reference to "backsliding" and slowing falling away from Christ over the years.

These who were sown of the rocky places, were those who faced persecution and death, and willfully turned away or departed from Christ, rather than be tortured and killed, they went back to Judaism.

• The "reason" they are being persecuted is "because" they are believers in Christ, and are saved, and are being coerced into going back to Judaism. That is the scenario being portrayed here by Jesus.

The example is about unbelieving Jews, Judaism, who claim Jesus is a false prophet, persecuting them, but can refer to Islam or any other religion.

The heat from the sun in the parable represents religious persecution, tribulation, being threatened with death and torture, if they do not renounce Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


This from Hebrews is a reference to the very thing Jesus was referring to in the parable of the Sower:


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6





JLB