Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Did you look at the two groups I mentioned?

In Romans 9 Paul said the adoption belongs to Israel.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1 KJV)

Yes, but all those in Christ are adopted. Jew and Gentile.

Romans 8:12-17
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

 

[JLB]

Judas was prophesied about interestingly enough;

Isaiah 50:10-11
10 Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the voice of his servant? Let him who walks in darkness and has no light trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God.
11 Behold, all you who kindle a fire, who equip yourselves with burning torches! Walk by the light of your fire, and by the torches that you have kindled! This you have from my hand: you shall lie down in torment.

and again

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

and,

‘Let another take his office.’
Acts 1:16-20


Let their dwelling place be desolate;
Let no one live in their tents.
For they persecute the ones You have struck,
And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.
Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 69:25-28

To blot someone from the book of life, they must first be written into the book of life.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

Yes, however, in Paul's day he literally had to deal with some people who were physically Jewish and some who were physically Gentiles. As such he addresses them differently at different times. Keep in mind that Paul had quite a few problems meshing Jews and Gentiles together. He had a big problem with Judaizers who were telling the Gentile converts that in addition to faith in Christ they also needed to keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Acts 15:1 KJV)
This is was a big problem for Paul.

I agree totally. But when it came to the things of Christ, the promises of God to believers in Christ, Paul made great strides to make sure Gentiles understood their inclusion in the promises of God to Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, but all those in Christ are adopted. Jew and Gentile.

Romans 8:12-17
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

But that does't necessitate that Paul is speaking of Gentiles in Ephesians 1

 

[Nathan]

I agree totally. But when it came to the things of Christ, the promises of God to believers in Christ, Paul made great strides to make sure Gentiles understood their inclusion in the promises of God to Israel.

He wanted to make sure Gentiles did not think they were an 'afterthought' of God. He wanted them to understand God had planned for them to be fellow heirs with those of the physical line of Israel.

 

[Butch5]

I agree totally. But when it came to the things of Christ, the promises of God to believers in Christ, Paul made great strides to make sure Gentiles understood their inclusion in the promises of God to Israel.

Yes, but remember that Israel had hundreds of years of history with God before the Gentiles in Christ entered the picture. It is this history that Paul is writing about in Ephesians 1

 

[Nathan]

But that does't necessitate that Paul is speaking of Gentiles in Ephesians 1

Verse 1 and 10 do give us understanding that it was not only Jews Paul was speaking to. Verse 11 is specific to include 'we'(being the Gentile believers) in the predestination of God.

 

[Nathan]

Yes, but remember that Israel had hundreds of years of history with God before the Gentiles in Christ entered the picture. It is this history that Paul is writing about in Ephesians 1

Predestination goes beyond hundreds of years. It goes to before the foundation of the world. God did not predestine people after creation.

 

[Nathan]

Verse 11 in chapter 2 ties all that he said beforehand together. We have to read it as one big letter, not a broken up verse by verse book.

 

[Butch5]

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:1 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:1 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Predestination goes beyond hundreds of years. It goes to before the foundation of the world. God did not predestine people after creation.

I think you're letting you theology drive your interpretation.

 

[JLB]

This passage in Ephesians is a Hebrew praise to God. In verses 3-12 Paul is praising God for what He's done for the the Jewish people. This passage isn't speaking of the Gentiles believers. It is Israel that was chosen by God. It is Israel that was predestined to adoption. This whole section speaks of Gods blessings on Israel.

It certainly wasn't Israel after the flesh, that was chosen by God, which Paul makes clear in Romans 9.

For instance Abraham was a Gentile.

Do you consider Abraham as part of the elect?


Paul includes the Ephesians as adopted sons just as those who first trusted in Christ are adopted sons, showing that there is no difference between a Jew after the flesh and Gentiles, in which both become adopted sons by trusting Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:3-14



Again, as far as predestination goes, God saw those who were "in Christ" [both Jew and Gentile] and chose them, that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ.

"Us" is a reference to those who are "in Christ"... both Jew & Gentile.


The Point I made was: Those who were predestined as sons, were those who were in Christ, which couldn't be those who were tares.




JLB

 

[Butch5]

Verse 11 in chapter 2 ties all that he said beforehand together. We have to read it as one big letter, not a broken up verse by verse book.

Paul does explain how the two have been made one in chapter two. The point is that he pointed out the differences between them in Chapter one. Look at the post I posted on Ephesians 1 and notice I put one group in red text and the other in blue text. Paul refers to the other group as you and your. Now look at the verse you just mentioned, chapter 2 verse 11.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph. 2:11-13 NKJ)

Notice what Paul said about the "you" group. They were Gentiles in the flesh. The contrast here is between Jew and Gentile. The "You" group is the Gentiles and the "Us" groups is the Jews.

 

[JLB]

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:1 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:1 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

All those references refer to those who are in Christ.

 

[JLB]

As I said, Predestination and Election aren't addressing people being chosen to salvation.

I agree.


Predestination according to purpose, not according to salvation.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

It certainly wasn't Israel after the flesh, that was chosen by God, which Paul makes clear in Romans 9.

For instance Abraham was a Gentile.

Do you consider Abraham as part of the elect?


Paul includes the Ephesians as adopted sons just as those who first trusted in Christ are adopted sons, showing that there is no difference between a Jew after the flesh and Gentiles, in which both become adopted sons by trusting Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 1:3-14



Again, as far as predestination goes, God saw those who were "in Christ" [both Jew and Gentile] and chose them, that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ.

"Us" is a reference to those who are "in Christ"... both Jew & Gentile.


The Point I made was: Those who were predestined as sons, were those who were in Christ, which couldn't be those who were tares.




JLB

Paul makes a grammatical argument in Ephesians by mentioning two distinct groups, "us" and "you." The "us" group cannot pertain to the Gentiles because there are passages in there that can't apply to the Gentiles. As I pointed out to Nathan, Paul identifies the "you" group in Chapter 2 verse 11 as the Gentiles. There are rules of grammar that must be followed in order to come to a proper conclusion.

 

[Butch5]

I agree.


Predestination according to purpose, not according to salvation.



JLB

What's the purpose?

 

[Butch5]

All those references refer to those who are in Christ.

How does us and you both refer to the same people?

 

[Chopper]

It's not. That idea is from the Reformation. Predestination and Election have to do with Israel and God's choosing people to fulfill His promises to Abraham. It's not the the idea that came out of the Reformation.

That's not how Ephesians Chapter one reads....

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Butch, where is a mention of Israel in these verses? There are none! Predestination can be found in both Covenants, not just the Old.

 

[Chopper]

There is a big clue to the mystery of Predestination, and that is all the Prophets of the Old Covenant. Isaiah for instance foretold the birth and location of Jesus' birth. That was decided before the foundations of the earth were laid, thus called Predestination. Lets not box in the purpose of God's power and forethought.