DO NOT BE SURPRISED (A Word Of Warning For The Time To Come)

[JLB]

Can't be Angels of the Lord, they are "Eternal Beings" and Can't experience death as the two witnesses will be killed and lay dead in the street.

Have to be angels since these are the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the earth.

This position of standing by the Lord of the earth requires those in this position to continue beyond the normal lifespan of a human being.

Otherwise this position would require more than “two witnesses”.


The angels manifested as men who ate and drank with Abraham and appeared in Sodom in which they were in danger of being raped by the homosexual mob.

These also appear in the last days as men who continue to have the ability to call down fire and destroy as the did in Sodom in which they appear to be killed but are raised again to life.




JLB

 

[ezrider]

Have to be angels since these are the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the earth.

This position of standing by the Lord of the earth requires those in this position to continue beyond the normal lifespan of a human being.

The two witnesses who stand before the Lord of the earth are Moses and Elijah. This is revealed in the mount of transfiguration.

 

[JLB]

The two witnesses who stand before the Lord of the earth are Moses and Elijah. This is revealed in the mount of transfiguration.

When were they assigned this position?

Before Sodom?



JLB

 

[Truth7t7]

Have to be angels since these are the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the earth.

This position of standing by the Lord of the earth requires those in this position to continue beyond the normal lifespan of a human being.

Otherwise this position would require more than “two witnesses”.


The angels manifested as men who ate and drank with Abraham and appeared in Sodom in which they were in danger of being raped by the homosexual mob.

These also appear in the last days as men who continue to have the ability to call down fire and destroy as the did in Sodom in which they appear to be killed but are raised again to life.




JLB

Once again, angels are created eternal beings, and Can't be killed or die as the "Two Witnesses" will do.

The witnesses are described as "Prophets", not Angels.

 

[JLB]

Once again, angels are created eternal beings, and Can't be killed or die as the "Two Witnesses" will do.

The witnesses are described as "Prophets", not Angels.

You might consider that, when angels come into this realm and manifest as men with flesh bodies, the laws of the natural world apply to them.

See Genesis 6.


Secondly it says they prophesied, not that they were prophets.


It matters not to me concerning who these witnesses are.

It’s noteworthy to understand that they are described as “my two witnesses” the “two olive trees” standing before the God of the whole earth.


And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
Revelation 11:3-6



JLB

 

[Truth7t7]

You might consider that, when angels come into this realm and manifest as men with flesh bodies, the laws of the natural world apply to them.

See Genesis 6.


Secondly it says they prophesied, not that they were prophets.


It matters not to me concerning who these witnesses are.

It’s noteworthy to understand that they are described as “my two witnesses” the “two olive trees” standing before the God of the whole earth.


And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
Revelation 11:3-6



JLB

You state when angels manifest in this world they take flesh bodies on, no place in the bible does it state this, as you suggest the Nephalim.

The bible does no stare who they will be, all guessing and speculation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Very well. And some of them remain yet sealed. But do you really limit the Spirit of the Lord to mere words in a book?



Who ever asked you to walk away from the written word? But you have to walk away from the idol you have made of it.

Jesus said when they deliver you up, take no thought of what you will speak, for it shall be given you in that hour what you shall speak, for it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Do you really think He's just going to give you a verse to quote?





What would make one a fool is not listening to and following the words of Christ. You keep looking for a man of sin, well then why don't you follow Jesus off into the wilderness to find him? Jesus fasted for forty days and forty night to be tempted of the devil. Could you not lay down your Bible and fast from the written word for forty days? You have been studying the written word for how many years now? More than 25? In all that time, do you think you have not enough oil yet to trim and test your lamp? Would your wellspring go dry if you don't water it for forty day? Do you still have to fill your wellspring daily? Or have you been filled by it?

The written words of God written in the Bible are sufficient enough for me as the Holy Spirit teaches me all that God wants me to learn. God is not going to add to or take away that of what He has already had His Prophets and Apostles to write.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

That's good enough for me as no one could ever exhaust all the teachings that are in the Bible. The Bible is not my idol nor do I worship the book itself, but worship the God that is taught within the pages as His word is total instruction in righteousness.

The seven seals are yet sealed as within God's timing Jesus will be the only one worthy to unseal them in the end of days so they are not sealed forever. That of what the seven thunders uttered are sealed, possibly forever as they were never given a time of revealment.

John 21: 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We have sufficient enough in the written word we have and that is where I am taught from by God's Holy Spirit as even God is not going to give any us us anything above that.

You're darn tootin I'm looking for the son of perdition to come as Jesus told us to flee from this antichrist when he stands in the holy place, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Matthew 24: 15-21.

Another event we are to watch for is found in Matthew 24:29-31 as no one knows the day nor the hour of Christ return. My lamp is full to the rim with oil as I patiently wait for His return. In the meantime I will continue in what He has called me to do.

 

[Randy]

Do not be surprised...
​

When multitudes of Christians take the mark of the beast. When pastors, friends and loved ones, who may or may not in fact be born again, take the mark and try to persuade you to do the same---telling you whatever they may to justify their actions and to persuade you: "For the sake of your children! What sort of parent would allow their children to go hungry! Is that what God would want? Do you think He is a monster, that it would be His will for His children to suffer, and innocent children, to not be able to eat or to lose their home, because their parents---who are responsible to provide for and protect them---refuse to take a mark? Didn't Jesus say that He would never leave us or forsake us, and that nothing can separate us from His love?"


Beware. People who will tell you these things are deceived themselves, and even being used of the devil, unbeknownst to them, to try to convince you to do what will be your undoing. You will save neither yourselves nor your children by taking the mark, and you will perish spiritually. Do not be deceived. Remember Eve.


And do not be surprised if church buildings all over the world, from the smallest to the greatest, are razed or set on fire, by order or encouragement of the government of the antichrist---as though God has turned His back on His people. The truth of it is that He hated what was being done in them, and they were an abomination to Him and an insult to His name; and by the hands of wicked men, He ordained that they should be destroyed and set on fire, as a testimony to the whole world that they did not honor Him and that He was not pleased with what was being done in them in His name: All the abominations that you now see in the churches, and the apostasy, in perverting the gospel and departing from and twisting the teachings of the faith, and making them whatever people want them to be to serve their own ends and to allow them to carry out the evil and unholy desires of their flesh and of their minds.


And on top of all of these abominations, which you now see, there will be yet another---the greatest of them all---when the people of God forsake Him and take the mark of the beast to save their lives on earth, and to avoid persecution, and when they bow down with the nations to worship the image of the antichrist: The abomination that makes desolate. And so shall they be left when they do it. The very thing that God declares in His word will happen to anyone who does this abomination, will happen to them also---though they quote every verse in the Bible to justify their faithlessness and rebellion, as they do now for other things.


So bear in mind, if and when the church buildings are destroyed, that it was the hand of your God that did it, through the hands of evil men, and His own mouth that gave the command---just as it was in the days of those who were before us, who we have as an example in the Scriptures, but fail to understand that we are following in their footsteps. It will not be because Satan has triumphed, that they will be torn down or set on fire, but because of the evil of God's people that they will be torn down, by God's own will. And it will be a testimony to the whole world, and to you, that this is so---that you may be ashamed of your rebellious ways and of your flagrant sins, and self-deception, and of the abominations that you used these houses for, and the sins you kept fresh in them, while calling on the name of the Lord and praising Him, to His dishonor and displeasure.


And do not be deceived by the many Christians---true or professing---who will take the mark and try to persuade you to do the same, telling you that no harm will come to you. They will be deceived. Believe the words of your God, and not the words of men over God's, as you have made a habit of doing.


We have good reason to believe that the very same thing that happened to the sanctuaries of Israel whenever they rebelled against the LORD will happen to us also, for the same reason. So no one should be surprised if it does. God is consistent in His ways.


And if and when the people of this world rejoice and mock at the destruction of them, saying that it is because the God of the Christians is not God and because Christians are not the people of God that the churches are razed and God does not prevent it or take vengeance on those who destroy them, remember that it is because God was displeased with the churches that He commanded that they be destroyed, and not because He has no power to prevent it. He never wanted them. He always wanted the hearts and lives of His people---but He got buildings instead, and sacrifice instead of obedience. And all manner of evil was being committed in the churches in His name.


The nations may exult over the destruction of the churches, but they will be foolish in doing so; for if the judgment of God begins at His household and sanctuary, and He does not spare His own people who rebel against Him, what will He do to those who have never known Him and have not obeyed the gospel? The cup of His wrath will come around to them also.

I didn't read about "Christians" taking the mark of the beast.
I did read about Christians who remained faithful and lost their lives. I'm confident they received a warm welcome in heaven by our Lord and savior. Like Antipas His faithful witness.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Mark S]

You might consider that, when angels come into this realm and manifest as men with flesh bodies, the laws of the natural world apply to them.

See Genesis 6.


Secondly it says they prophesied, not that they were prophets.


It matters not to me concerning who these witnesses are.

It’s noteworthy to understand that they are described as “my two witnesses” the “two olive trees” standing before the God of the whole earth.


And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
Revelation 11:3-6



JLB

I never said that the two witnesses were angels. Although this is an interesting theory. In my document I pointed out the three most popular theories. The most popular and agreed theory as to the identity of the two witnesses in the Christian community are that they are men. The theory of them being angels similar to the ones who warned lot in Sodom is an interesting concept and I see no reason to dispute this possibility.

View (3) essentially argues that Revelation chapter 11 does not attach any famous identity to the two witnesses. If their identities were Moses and Elijah, or Enoch and Elijah, why would Scripture be silent about this? God is perfectly capable of taking two "ordinary" believers and enabling them to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah did. There is nothing in Revelation 11 that requires us to assume a "famous" identity for the two witnesses.

Which view is correct? The possible weakness of (1) is that Moses has already died once, and therefore could not be one of the two witnesses, who die, which would make Moses a contradiction of Hebrews 9:27. Proponents of (1) will argue that all of the people who were miraculously resurrected in the Bible (e.g., Lazarus) later died again. Hebrews 9:27 is viewed, then, as a "general rule," not a universal principle. There are no clear weaknesses to view (2), as it solves the "die once" problem, and it makes sense that if God took two people to heaven without dying, Enoch and Elijah, it was to prepare them for a special purpose. There are also no clear weaknesses to view (3). All three views are valid and plausible interpretations that Christians can have. The identities of the two witnesses is an issue Christians should not be dogmatic about.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, He just says He will keep it hidden from you.

2 Cor 3:12-14
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


Perhaps if your heart was set on learning of Christ then you wouldn't act like your still blind. But as it is, you have told us that you look for the antichrist in Daniel 7's little horn.

2 Cor 3:15-18
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.




Can you in all honesty say that the Holy Spirit is going to teach you about some anti-christ son of perdition and then glorify the man of sin? But what is written in the scripture about what God will do?

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

It is written that Christ was made the head cornerstone, but He was also made a stumblingblock and a stone of offense. Perhaps you would be better served to understand Christ the stumblingblock before you convince yourself that you set upon the cornerstone.

Matt 21:42-44
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.





Well you keep on looking, will you? When you finally found him, then maybe you can explain the whole mystery of iniquity. I just don't trouble myself with looking for the man of sin anymore. I met him nearly 25 years ago. Before I had my gospel armor stripped from me piece by piece, and before I received my new garment. Since then I have walked by a different Word of Faith.

There is nothing hidden in the word of God that is not revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. The veil was torn from top to bottom when Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51.

Yes, the Holy Spirit has taught me about the son of perdition as it is written in the scriptures and many times in this thread I have given the scriptures for you to read as it is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, which Jesus told us to flee from when when this lawless man of sin stands in the holy place, Matthew24:15-21. There is only one holy place here on earth and that is the holy city of Jerusalem.

Where did I ever say we are to glorify the son of perdition and why would we if we are of Christ.

Christ is not the stumbling block, but the stone/foundation and is an offence to those who are disobedient to Him, 1 Peter 2:6-8.

Jesus hasn't returned yet so I will continue wearing my armour until He does as then I will no longer need it, Ephesians 6:10-18.

 

[Truth7t7]

I never said that the two witnesses were angels. Although this is an interesting theory. In my document I pointed out the three most popular theories. The most popular and agreed theory as to the identity of the two witnesses in the Christian community are that they are men. The theory of them being angels similar to the ones who warned lot in Sodom is an interesting concept and I see no reason to dispute this possibility.

View (3) essentially argues that Revelation chapter 11 does not attach any famous identity to the two witnesses. If their identities were Moses and Elijah, or Enoch and Elijah, why would Scripture be silent about this? God is perfectly capable of taking two "ordinary" believers and enabling them to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah did. There is nothing in Revelation 11 that requires us to assume a "famous" identity for the two witnesses.

Which view is correct? The possible weakness of (1) is that Moses has already died once, and therefore could not be one of the two witnesses, who die, which would make Moses a contradiction of Hebrews 9:27. Proponents of (1) will argue that all of the people who were miraculously resurrected in the Bible (e.g., Lazarus) later died again. Hebrews 9:27 is viewed, then, as a "general rule," not a universal principle. There are no clear weaknesses to view (2), as it solves the "die once" problem, and it makes sense that if God took two people to heaven without dying, Enoch and Elijah, it was to prepare them for a special purpose. There are also no clear weaknesses to view (3). All three views are valid and plausible interpretations that Christians can have. The identities of the two witnesses is an issue Christians should not be dogmatic about.

We agree, it's speculation as the bible does not disclose their identity?

Could it be two existing Christian believers, absolutely.

However I believe angels are eternal created beings, that Can't die a physical death as seen in Revelation 11

Just more speculation?

I believe these two literal tangible beings will have physical bodies that die, and bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, just as Moses And Aaron did in Egypt.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is nothing hidden in the word of God that is not revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. The veil was torn from top to bottom when Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51.

Yes, the Holy Spirit has taught me about the son of perdition as it is written in the scriptures and many times in this thread I have given the scriptures for you to read as it is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, which Jesus told us to flee from when when this lawless man of sin stands in the holy place, Matthew24:15-21. There is only one holy place here on earth and that is the holy city of Jerusalem.

Where did I ever say we are to glorify the son of perdition and why would we if we are of Christ.

Christ is not the stumbling block, but the stone/foundation and is an offence to those who are disobedient to Him, 1 Peter 2:6-8.

Jesus hasn't returned yet so I will continue wearing my armour until He does as then I will no longer need it, Ephesians 6:10-18.

I agree 100%, excellent post!

 

[for_his_glory]

Key points in Rev 11 about the two witnesses:

vs. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Compare these two verses with that of 1 Kings Chapter 18 where Elijah called on the Lord and He sent fire down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice. I'm not saying Elijah is one of the two witnesses, just making a comparioson of the fire called down from heaven. Here we read these have power as I believe it is the same power Elijah had when he called on God to send fire down, but here even more than fire as in stopping the rain, turning water into blood and smite the earth with plagues. This is also the same power Moses had over Pharaoh, in Exodus 7-11

vs. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The beast out of the bottomless pit in Rev 9:1-12 seem to be literal locust. The star John saw that fell from heaven and having the key to open the bottomless pit is Apollyon (destroyer) who is probably the same angel we read about in Revelation 20:1-3 that God gives the key to that opens the bottomless pit Satan will be shut up in. When the bottomless pit was opened locust came up out of it. In reference to smoke these locust would be to numerous to number, Judges 7:12, and look like dark smoke as they rise and swarm if you saw them from a distance. Once they became closer to your vision you would see that it wasn’t smoke, but a hoard of locust. Their attributes of what God is purposing them for is what gives them their power to sting as in tormenting those who have not the seal of God on them. They are compared as scorpions that literally sting using the power of their tails as they raise them above their head.

Again we see the mention of the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7 as here it says beast. Locust can be considered beast of torment, but in this scenerio God purposes them to kill the two witnesses. Their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. The great city could be symbolic for every nation in the world as at this time in the end of days mystery Babylon with its Luciferian economic, political, military and religious system will be established in every nation on earth, as even now it is being implemented. Babylon was called the great city in Rev 14:8 and we read in Rev 19 that Jesus will destroy this great city that is called mystery Babylon.

One clue that the two witnesses are not just two people or two angels is that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, but in a place called Golgotha just outside of Jerusalem, which in Aramaic means place of the skull. The second clue that it is not just two witnesses is the street is not localized or named because all the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. I believe the 3 1/2 days are a reference to the 3 1/2 years when the son of perdition takes a literal seat on the very foundation where the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and now stands the Dome of the Rock since 691 A.D and even now is being refurbished for the man of sin who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

My take is that the two witnesses according to Zechariah 4 and being this is a world wide event as in all nations when they come to preach during the last 3 1/2 are that of the Jews, (like the Disciples) who are to continue their commission to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5-7 as Jews throughout the world have not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah. Paul on the other hand was called to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, as well as the Gentiles who are called at this time to preach the Gospel in all nations only to the lost Gentiles.

 

[ezrider]

Christ is not the stumbling block, but the stone/foundation and is an offence to those who are disobedient to Him, 1 Peter 2:6-8.

Isaiah 8:13-15
Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself;
and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
And he shall be for a sanctuary;
but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel,
for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken,
and be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah 8:16-18
Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
And I will wait upon the Lord,
that hideth his face from the house of Jacob,
and I will look for him.
Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me
are for signs and for wonders in Israel
from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isaiah 8:19-22
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
should not a people seek unto their God?
for the living to the dead?
To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.
And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry:
and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves,
and curse their king and their God, and look upward.
And they shall look unto the earth;
and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish;
and they shall be driven to darkness.




1 Peter 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


The blind stumble about at the word, looking for the devil everywhere.

 

[Truth7t7]

Key points in Rev 11 about the two witnesses:

vs. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Compare these two verses with that of 1 Kings Chapter 18 where Elijah called on the Lord and He sent fire down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice. I'm not saying Elijah is one of the two witnesses, just making a comparioson of the fire called down from heaven. Here we read these have power as I believe it is the same power Elijah had when he called on God to send fire down, but here even more than fire as in stopping the rain, turning water into blood and smite the earth with plagues. This is also the same power Moses had over Pharaoh, in Exodus 7-11

vs. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The beast out of the bottomless pit in Rev 9:1-12 seem to be literal locust. The star John saw that fell from heaven and having the key to open the bottomless pit is Apollyon (destroyer) who is probably the same angel we read about in Revelation 20:1-3 that God gives the key to that opens the bottomless pit Satan will be shut up in. When the bottomless pit was opened locust came up out of it. In reference to smoke these locust would be to numerous to number, Judges 7:12, and look like dark smoke as they rise and swarm if you saw them from a distance. Once they became closer to your vision you would see that it wasn’t smoke, but a hoard of locust. Their attributes of what God is purposing them for is what gives them their power to sting as in tormenting those who have not the seal of God on them. They are compared as scorpions that literally sting using the power of their tails as they raise them above their head.

Again we see the mention of the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7 as here it says beast. Locust can be considered beast of torment, but in this scenerio God purposes them to kill the two witnesses. Their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. The great city could be symbolic for every nation in the world as at this time in the end of days mystery Babylon with its Luciferian economic, political, military and religious system will be established in every nation on earth, as even now it is being implemented. Babylon was called the great city in Rev 14:8 and we read in Rev 19 that Jesus will destroy this great city that is called mystery Babylon.

One clue that the two witnesses are not just two people or two angels is that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, but in a place called Golgotha just outside of Jerusalem, which in Aramaic means place of the skull. The second clue that it is not just two witnesses is the street is not localized or named because all the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. I believe the 3 1/2 days are a reference to the 3 1/2 years when the son of perdition takes a literal seat on the very foundation where the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and now stands the Dome of the Rock since 691 A.D and even now is being refurbished for the man of sin who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

My take is that the two witnesses according to Zechariah 4 and being this is a world wide event as in all nations when they come to preach during the last 3 1/2 are that of the Jews, (like the Disciples) who are to continue their commission to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5-7 as Jews throughout the world have not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah. Paul on the other hand was called to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, as well as the Gentiles who are called at this time to preach the Gospel in all nations only to the lost Gentiles.

I agree that "Locust" are literal, as seen in Revelation 9:1-4, as it is commanded not to hurt any green thing or tree, "Vegetation"

I disagree with your take on the "Two Witnesses" representing Nations that will preach the gospel, way toooo many "Personal Pronouns" They, Them, Their.

You must disregard literal physical bodies dying, a world rejoicing at their death, bodies laying in a literal street, in a literal city, literal eyes of the world watching them being raised, literal gifts being exchanged, a literal earthquake, that kills a literal 7,000.

Toooo much literal to symbolize.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that "Locust" are literal, as seen in Revelation 9:1-4, as it is commanded not to hurt any green thing or tree, "Vegetation"

I disagree with your take on the "Two Witnesses" representing Nations that will preach the gospel, way toooo many "Personal Pronouns" They, Them, Their.

You must disregard literal physical bodies dying, a world rejoicing at their death, bodies laying in a literal street, in a literal city, literal eyes of the world watching them being raised, literal gifts being exchanged, a literal earthquake, that kills a literal 7,000.

Toooo much literal to symbolize.

This is just how I see it to be according to how it is read in the scriptures. The two witnesses come during the last 3 1/2 years after the seventh trumpet is sounded. During this time Christians will be forced to renounce Christ and take the mark of this beast or either be taken into captivity or be killed. It's like that of Daniel Chapter 3 with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were forced to bow down or be killed and God raised them from the fiery furnace. Of course they were not dead, but the point is God brought them out from the hands of their captures. These witnesses are killed and in 3 1/2 days are raised. This could be the time of Christ return as we read in Rev 19 He returns and destroys the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then the resurrection of the saints to be raised and gathered to Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is just how I see it to be according to how it is read in the scriptures. The two witnesses come during the last 3 1/2 years after the seventh trumpet is sounded. During this time Christians will be forced to renounce Christ and take the mark of this beast or either be taken into captivity or be killed. It's like that of Daniel Chapter 3 with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who were forced to bow down or be killed and God raised them from the fiery furnace. Of course they were not dead, but the point is God brought them out from the hands of their captures. These witnesses are killed and in 3 1/2 days are raised. This could be the time of Christ return as we read in Rev 19 He returns and destroys the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then the resurrection of the saints to be raised and gathered to Christ.

I disagree that the literal "Two Witnesses" that will maintain physical bodies, come after the 7th Trump, as this trump is the end of this world. Revelation 11:15

The 7th Trump and 7th Vial are the same event of the end of this world, parallel teachings.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:17KJV
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Christians nor anybody else will be forced into taking the mark of the beast, they willfully will be deceived into this by the false prophet, through false miracles, as seen in Revelation 19:20 below.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The entire 3.5 year tribulation will be controlled by the "Two Witnesses", they will stand before the beast/antichrist as Moses And Aaron stood before Pharoh of Egypt, all plagues upon the world, as often as they will.

The plagues will only fall on those that are not sealed by the Holy Spirit, Revelation 9:3-6 below, the world will be tormented by these witnesses through plagues, seeking death for 5 months, not being able to die.

Who's commanding the "Locust", not to hurt the green vegetation and sealed believers, not the Beast/Antichrist

The Lord Jesus Christ Is The Commander!

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

You suggest the beast/antichrist is in control, not hardly.

The Lord God Jesus Christ Is In Control Of The Tribulation, He That Has An Ear, Let Him Hear!

Those that move to harm the believer will in return be harmed, open your ears to God's divine protection of the believer!

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

[JLB]

You state when angels manifest in this world they take flesh bodies on, no place in the bible does it state this, as you suggest the Nephalim.

The bible does no stare who they will be, all guessing and speculation.

Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. Genesis 18:1-3


The bible says three men...

The bible goes on to say these men were to eat and drink with Abraham.


4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

They said, “Do as you have said.”

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. Genesis 18:4-8

It is later revealed that these "men" who ate with Abraham, and were with the Lord, were angels.


Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. Genesis 19:1


These two angels who accompanied the Lord, and ate with Abraham, are now in Sodom, in which they continued to appear as men, so much so, the local homosexuals were wanting to rape them.


4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” Genesis 19:4-5


If the angels, who appeared as men, and ate and drank, then it stands to reason they appeared in physical bodies, that functioned according to the laws of this natural realm, in which the men of Sodom were not afraid of them.


As far as the account of Genesis 6, it is obvious these "sons of God" who came into the "daughters of men" were operating the same way as they left their own abode [spirit realm] and joined themselves with the daughters of men, function as the "men" who were angels did as they appeared to Noah and ate and drank natural food and drink.


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4

• There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.

If these "sons of God" were actually "sons of Adam" or "sons of men" as they were called in the old testament, then please explain how they "continued after" the flood to produce Nephilim giants, in which they were unaffected by the flood, when all flesh was destroyed by the flood.

Please explain that.

Please explain how they continued after the flood when only Noah and his sons were left alive.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I never said that the two witnesses were angels.

I know, I am the one who said it.

It really doesn't matter to me, It's not my teaching, as I said.

I thought that I would share it, for those who wish to discuss.

God is perfectly capable of taking two "ordinary" believers and enabling them to perform the same signs and wonders that Moses and Elijah did. There is nothing in Revelation 11 that requires us to assume a "famous" identity for the two witnesses.

Agreed.

The possible weakness of (1) is that Moses has already died once, and therefore could not be one of the two witnesses, who die, which would make Moses a contradiction of Hebrews 9:27.

Agreed

There are no clear weaknesses to view (2), as it solves the "die once" problem, and it makes sense that if God took two people to heaven without dying, Enoch and Elijah, it was to prepare them for a special purpose.

Agreed

The identities of the two witnesses is an issue Christians should not be dogmatic about.

Agreed




JLB

 

[Truth7t7]

Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. Genesis 18:1-3


The bible says three men...

The bible goes on to say these men were to eat and drink with Abraham.


4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

They said, “Do as you have said.”

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. Genesis 18:4-8

It is later revealed that these "men" who ate with Abraham, and were with the Lord, were angels.


Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. Genesis 19:1


These two angels who accompanied the Lord, and ate with Abraham, are now in Sodom, in which they continued to appear as men, so much so, the local homosexuals were wanting to rape them.


4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” Genesis 19:4-5


If the angels, who appeared as men, and ate and drank, then it stands to reason they appeared in physical bodies, that functioned according to the laws of this natural realm, in which the men of Sodom were not afraid of them.


As far as the account of Genesis 6, it is obvious these "sons of God" who came into the "daughters of men" were operating the same way as they left their own abode [spirit realm] and joined themselves with the daughters of men, function as the "men" who were angels did as they appeared to Noah and ate and drank natural food and drink.


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4

• There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.

If these "sons of God" were actually "sons of Adam" or "sons of men" as they were called in the old testament, then please explain how they "continued after" the flood to produce Nephilim giants, in which they were unaffected by the flood, when all flesh was destroyed by the flood.

Please explain that.

Please explain how they continued after the flood when only Noah and his sons were left alive.



JLB

The Nephilim is a false teaching propagated by Chuck Missler, Kononia House.

The "Son's Of God" were natural male human beings.

Romans 8:14KJV
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Angels are "Eternal Created Beings" they Don't marry and have sexual intercourse, neither do they "Die Physical Deaths" as the "Two Witnesses" will do.

Luke 20:34-36KJV
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The "Two Witnesses" are called "Prophets" at no time is an Angel of God called "Prophet" no place in the Holy Bible.

Revelation 11:10KJV
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.