Bible Study History of the Christian Church

[Truthfrees]

I

1. There are two Ways, one of Life and one of Death, and there is a great difference between the two Ways.
2. The way of life is this:" First, you shalt love the God who made thee, secondly, thy neighbor as thyself; and whatsoever thou wouldst not have done to thyself, do not thou to another."
3. Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy.
4. "Abstain from carnal" and bodily "lusts." "If any man smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also," and thou wilt be perfect. "If any man impress thee to go with him one mile, go with him two. If any man take thy coat, give him thy shirt also. If any man will take from thee what is thine, refuse it not," not even if thou canst.
5. Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."

i like most of what is in the didache because it matches scripture

3. Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy. - scripture does not say that if we love our enemies we will have no enemies - it tells us to love our enemies even though they are our enemies

5. Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."

on part 1 point 5 seems to be at odds with points 1-4 - also i can't think of a scripture that matches point 5 - points 1-4 say to love forgive turn the other cheek but then point 5 says to put in prison - presumably debtor's prison - until every last farthing is paid back - this causes me to read with caution - it appears man is inputting his own ideology into this document - either the supposed original author or someone who later copied or translated

Matthew 18:28-34 says the wicked servant who was forgiven a million dollar debt then went and threw his fellow servant in jail for a 10 dollar debt - so the king had this wicked servant thrown into prison for being so pettily unforgiving of a tiny debt until he paid the million dollars back to the last penny - so point 5 seems like a harsh misinterpretation/twist of scripture on forgiving debt

 

[WIP]

4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Here's another part about baptism that brings up questions. I don't recall anybaptism, either in the Roman Catholic church in which I was raised nor in the Lutheran church where I attend now, where point 4 above is followed.

1. When did the Church stop fasting for two days prior to baptism.
2. Since the Church was baptizing infants, they would also have to be forced to fast for two days. It does seem that in the time when the Church was first gathering, fasting was abstinence from food and it was more than just the symboloic giving up of red meat as we do today, which in my opinion is hardly a true fast. At least that is how I understand it was. An infant then would receive only water and no breast milk?

 

[WIP]

I have another question.

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."

The procedure described for baptism also first requires running water. It doesn't say the one being baptized must be submerged but it does indicate it required running water. At the time this was written, about the only available running water would likely have been a river or possibly some kind of ductwork or ditch.

Baptizing in a stagnate pool or tub was only a second option if running water was not available. And finally, pouring water over the head was a third and last option if neither of the other two were available.

In other words, baptism was not to be done the way most do it today out of convenience.



Sorry for all the questions about the section on baptism, but it seems that what the Didache taught is quite different from what even the Catholic church embraces, even though the CC claims to follow the rules as much as possible. It doesn't seem there are many churches if any that follow the Didache as written.

 

[OzSpen]

don't really like dynamic equivalence - it is interesting and thought provoking but unreliable - rather have a plain word for word translation

TF,

It would be nice if literal word-for-word were possible. As a translator of the Greek NT, I know that it can't be done for English translation as it's impossible to get a rational sentence many times without adding some words of explanation in the text. In some formal equivalence translations, they acknowledge this by placing the added words of explanation in italics.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Since the Church was baptizing infants,

my self i find no merit in infant baptism i was raised methodist they sprinkle not sure on infants

 

[JLB]

Do we at least agree that we have:
The Apostles
The Apostolic Fathers
The Early Church Fathers

Give us your understanding of the difference between The Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers.




JLB

 

[JLB]

i like most of what is in the didache because it matches scripture

Yes. I agree.



JLB

 

[JLB]

i read the didache and saw some things that were as unbiblical as some of the things in the talmud

Please pm me some of these things you are referring to in the Didache, that are unbiblical.


I haven’t studied it much but the little I have read seems inline with the scriptures.


Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. Woe to him who receives; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who receives not having need shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what. And coming into confinement, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape from there until he pays back the last penny. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.


Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden.And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.



Chapter 3. Other Sins Forbidden. My child, flee from every evil thing, and from every likeness of it. Be not prone to anger, for anger leads to murder. Be neither jealous, nor quarrelsome, nor of hot temper, for out of all these murders are engendered. My child, be not a lustful one. for lust leads to fornication. Be neither a filthy talker, nor of lofty eye, for out of all these adulteries are engendered. My child, be not an observer of omens, since it leads to idolatry. Be neither an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a purifier, nor be willing to took at these things, for out of all these idolatry is engendered. My child, be not a liar, since a lie leads to theft. Be neither money-loving, nor vainglorious, for out of all these thefts are engendered. My child, be not a murmurer, since it leads the way to blasphemy. Be neither self-willed nor evil-minded, for out of all these blasphemies are engendered.
Rather, be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth. Be long-suffering and pitiful and guileless and gentle and good and always trembling at the words which you have heard. You shall not exalt yourself, nor give over-confidence to your soul. Your soul shall not be joined with lofty ones, but with just and lowly ones shall it have its intercourse. Accept whatever happens to you as good, knowing that apart from God nothing comes to pass.


JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

i like most of what is in the didache because it matches scripture

3. Now, the teaching of these words is this: "Bless those that curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those that persecute you. For what credit is it to you if you love those that love you? Do not even the heathen do the same?" But, for your part, "love those that hate you," and you will have no enemy. - scripture does not say that if we love our enemies we will have no enemies - it tells us to love our enemies even though they are our enemies

5. Give to everyone that asks thee, and do not refuse, for the Father's will is that we give to all from the gifts we have received. Blessed is he that gives according to the mandate; for he is innocent; but he who receives it without need shall be tried as to why he took and for what, and being in prison he shall be examined as to his deeds, and "he shall not come out thence until he pay the last farthing."

on part 1 point 5 seems to be at odds with points 1-4 - also i can't think of a scripture that matches point 5 - points 1-4 say to love forgive turn the other cheek but then point 5 says to put in prison - presumably debtor's prison - until every last farthing is paid back - this causes me to read with caution - it appears man is inputting his own ideology into this document - either the supposed original author or someone who later copied or translated

Matthew 18:28-34 says the wicked servant who was forgiven a million dollar debt then went and threw his fellow servant in jail for a 10 dollar debt - so the king had this wicked servant thrown into prison for being so pettily unforgiving of a tiny debt until he paid the million dollars back to the last penny - so point 5 seems like a harsh misinterpretation/twist of scripture on forgiving debt

Please pm me some of these things you are referring to in the Didache, that are unbiblical.

I haven’t studied it much but the little I have read seems inline with the scriptures.

Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. Woe to him who receives; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless; but he who receives not having need shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what. And coming into confinement, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape from there until he pays back the last penny. And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.


Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden.And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.



Chapter 3. Other Sins Forbidden. My child, flee from every evil thing, and from every likeness of it. Be not prone to anger, for anger leads to murder. Be neither jealous, nor quarrelsome, nor of hot temper, for out of all these murders are engendered. My child, be not a lustful one. for lust leads to fornication. Be neither a filthy talker, nor of lofty eye, for out of all these adulteries are engendered. My child, be not an observer of omens, since it leads to idolatry. Be neither an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a purifier, nor be willing to took at these things, for out of all these idolatry is engendered. My child, be not a liar, since a lie leads to theft. Be neither money-loving, nor vainglorious, for out of all these thefts are engendered. My child, be not a murmurer, since it leads the way to blasphemy. Be neither self-willed nor evil-minded, for out of all these blasphemies are engendered.
Rather, be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth. Be long-suffering and pitiful and guileless and gentle and good and always trembling at the words which you have heard. You shall not exalt yourself, nor give over-confidence to your soul. Your soul shall not be joined with lofty ones, but with just and lowly ones shall it have its intercourse. Accept whatever happens to you as good, knowing that apart from God nothing comes to pass.


JLB

the top quote is from section 1 re: points #3 & #5

i will have to study the rest of the sections to find the spots that didn't seem like a solid match to scripture

 

[JLB]

One question that came to me. In the part about baptism, I do not see how it would apply to infants. It says, "Having first rehearsed all these things," which to me sounds like something an infant couldn't possibly do. With this said, how then did the early Church begin to allow infant baptism?

1. Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
2. But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
3. But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
4. And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

Also, Phillip said these words to the Ethiopian Eunuch -

• “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:36-38


Baptism is for those who believe with all their heart.



JLB

 

[JLB]

the top quote is from section 1 re: points #3 & #5

i will have to study the rest of the sections to find the spots that didn't seem like a solid match to scripture

If you run across something, pm.

No big deal.



Thanks, JLB

 

[chessman]

Jesus did say to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Not by turning the other cheek He didn’t. Even atheists can “turn the other cheek”.

Actually, He promised that sons of the Father in Heaven “shall be” perfect. Literal translations like the NASB and the NKJV clarified the KJV’s translation of this verse:

“Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=DLNT

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=NKJV​

48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=NASB

It IS our telos to be made perfect.

 

[chessman]

How is it possible for people born into sin who are sinners to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. That sounds like an impossibility to me.

It is, with humans. But with God, all things are possible.

Having looked at them, Jesus says, “With humans it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God”.​

Mark 10:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 10:27&version=DLNT

What are the alternatives?

(1) Either God is requiring something I cannot attain (perfection) – which makes God a liar (which He is not – Heb 6:18), or

(2) In the original languages, ‘perfection’ has a meaning that is difference from our English connotation.

(3) that the One having begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ—

 

[JLB]

It is, with humans. But with God, all things are possible.

Having looked at them, Jesus says, “With humans it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God”.​

Mark 10:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 10:27&version=DLNT


(3) that the One having begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ—

The process of being made perfect; complete, not lacking any of the qualities and character of Christ is ours to embrace.


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
Ephesians 4:11-15



But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9





JLB

 

[chessman]

And He Himself gave ...

Yes, that’s my point.

till we all come to the unity of the faith

Yep, one day “we all” will come to the unity of the faith, even about “all things”, including marriage, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

Yep, the craftiness, trickery and deceit about the things concerning marriage and eating certain foods will end one day when “we all” (not just some but all) come to maturity in the faith.

But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow into him with reference to all things, who is the head, Christ,​

Ephesians 4:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 4:15&version=LEB

 

[WIP]

Also, Phillip said these words to the Ethiopian Eunuch -

• “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:36-38


Baptism is for those who believe with all their heart.



JLB

Don't want to debate our various views on baptism as that would be off topic and I'd much rather this thread remain on topic but when reviewing the Didache, which is supposedly the directions provided by the apostles themselves, it seems that the Church has strayed from the instructions provided. I'm trying to understand what the reasons for that would be. In fact, I don't know of any church that actually does follow the instructions as defined in the Didache but then my knowledge is extremely limited in this regard.

 

[JLB]

Don't want to debate our various views on baptism as that would be off topic and I'd much rather this thread remain on topic but when reviewing the Didache, which is supposedly the directions provided by the apostles themselves, it seems that the Church has strayed from the instructions provided. I'm trying to understand what the reasons for that would be. In fact, I don't know of any church that actually does follow the instructions as defined in the Didache but then my knowledge is extremely limited in this regard.

Im not wanting to debate various views on baptism, but I was validating your assessment of “how can infants do all these things” in order to qualify for baptism.


The key that Phillip gave was “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”


How then can an infant be baptized if they haven’t “believed with all their heart.”


That is the only point I was making.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, that’s my point.


Yep, one day “we all” will come to the unity of the faith, even about “all things”, including marriage, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.


Yep, the craftiness, trickery and deceit about the things concerning marriage and eating certain foods will end one day when “we all” (not just some but all) come to maturity in the faith.

But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow into him with reference to all things, who is the head, Christ,​

Ephesians 4:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 4:15&version=LEB

This post is referencing a thread that was closed.


I will start a post about what the term “the faith” means and we can pick it up from there.


If that is ok with you, I will start it.


I don’t want our conversation to derail this thread.


We can start with your post above.



Thanks JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Not by turning the other cheek He didn’t. Even atheists can “turn the other cheek”.

Actually, He promised that sons of the Father in Heaven “shall be” perfect. Literal translations like the NASB and the NKJV clarified the KJV’s translation of this verse:

“Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=DLNT

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=NKJV​

48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Matthew 5:48 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:48&version=NASB

It IS our telos to be made perfect.

chessman,

The Greek word in Matt 5:48 is not telos, but is based on that root word, which means 'end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children' (Matt 5:48, A T Robertson 1930. Word Pictures in the New Testament: Matthew and Mark, p. 49).

It is teleios [plural teleioi]. It refers to a goal and I don’t know one single word in English to convey its meaning. It doesn’t mean absolute sinlessness, just like God cannot sin, because if we go back to Matt 5:6, the disciples are blessed if they ‘hunger and thirst for righteousness’. Verse 7 states, ‘Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy’ (NIV). They are not yet completely merciful but will be shown mercy by God if they engage in merciful acts.

Please note that in this verse it is not in the singular but plural, so it refers to a group of believers (here the disciples) becoming mature.

Therefore, I conclude that ‘perfect’ is not the meaning of teleios. In fact, it’s a misleading interpretation of the original. The statement of Matt 5:48 comes from Deut 18:13, ‘Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God’ (KJV), which modern translations render as, ‘You shall be blameless before the Lord your God’ (NKJV). Here, ‘perfect’ is the Hebrew, tham, which means ‘complete’, like a whole number (Lenski).
[Taken from my article: Can Christians become absolutely sinless?]

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It is, with humans. But with God, all things are possible.

Having looked at them, Jesus says, “With humans it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God”.​

Mark 10:27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Mark 10:27&version=DLNT

(3) that the One having begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ—

chessman,

That doesn't alter the fact I have never ever in a long life met one Christian who claims to be and demonstrates perfection.

See post #39 where I've shown that teleios/telos does not mean sinless perfection.

I agree that nothing is impossible with God, but that sinlessness is not God's goal according to Matt 5:48 (NIV).

Oz