Born Again?

[JohnDB]

This got me thinking. If all of our known translations are tainted by various biases, then what you're saying is all of our known translations of the Bible have no value. What is it then that we believe?

I was not present with my Lord, Jesus, when He walked the earth. I was not a witness to the various authors when they penned or dictated their inspired words. I have never held in my hand, seen in any form, nor heard first-hand the original penned documents of the inspired Scriptures.

In another thread recently, I posted information about the number and backgrounds of the people involved with some of our more commonly recognized Bible translations and not one of them was translated by any one particular group of like-minded people. In every one of them, the scholars and historians that were involved were from various backgrounds, denominations, and so forth and in the end their final result was one in which they came to agreement about how the text was to be translated.

Even if I could see one of those original penned documents I speak and read only one language, English. Therefore, when it comes to reading the Bible, I rely on the expertise of scholars and translators and trust that the Holy Spirit not only helps me but also played a role in the process of translating the Bible over the years into the English version we have available today. If I can't, then my understanding is null and void.

Your understanding of scriptures is fine.
It's particular passages of "ticklish" subjects that things get warped into soft peddling or obfuscation.

Matthew 19 when Jesus talks about divorce is just such a passage.
The volume of people killed, tortured, belittled and abused over this passage of scripture being translated into English and the many ways it's been translated is a great example.
King Henry the 8th started it all along with the Reformation...
So translation has caused many a translator pause. An unfavorable opinion of scriptures could get a guy killed in all kinds of painful ways.

Today every large denomination has their own translation because they all have their own theologies to promote. Areas of scriptures highlighted and others to demote into obfuscation or ignoring.

And that's why even if people don't agree with me I want them to study not just a commentary but real rescources that have no "dog in the hunt". And if that can happen... everyone wins.
I know that not everyone can do research like some of us can or will...but enough that we don't have to rely on people claiming mystic abilities to understand scriptures to know all about what the scriptures are telling us.

 

[ezra]

Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. Mark 6:3


Is what we are teaching, stimulating confidence in the scriptures or diminishing confidence in the scriptures?


Honestly, how does denying born again, means spiritual birth or that Jesus was not a carpenter, develope a healthy respect and confidence in people who are searching for the truth?



Just my two cents.



JLB

exactly strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. this is exactly what is happening Born again by the spirit will stay in my Bible

 

[JohnDB]

Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. Mark 6:3


Is what we are teaching, stimulating confidence in the scriptures or diminishing confidence in the scriptures?


Honestly, how does denying born again, means spiritual birth or that Jesus was not a carpenter, develope a healthy respect and confidence in people who are searching for the truth?



Just my two cents.



JLB

It's about the same as denying that there were atrocities committed during the crusades.
Pretending that it didn't happen creates doubt in those listening to you intelligently.

Accepting the truth, the whole truth, is the best and only way things are going to be better.

 

[JLB]

And that's why even if people don't agree with me I want them to study not just a commentary but real rescources that have no "dog in the hunt". And if that can happen... everyone wins.
I know that not everyone can do research like some of us can or will...but enough that we don't have to rely on people claiming mystic abilities to understand scriptures to know all about what the scriptures are telling us.

Do you believe that people who rely on the Holy Spirit, to guide them and teach them from the scriptures are mystics?


Were you aware that a promise of the New Covenant is that we will be taught by the Lord.


Were you aware this is what the Lord has always desired, as we see from the garden of eden?


Were you aware that Abraham walked in this kind of relationship with the Lord?


Jeremiah says it it this way -


“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34




John says it this way -


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
1 John 2:27



Peter -


He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17





JLB

 

[JLB]

It's about the same as denying that there were atrocities committed during the crusades.
Pretending that it didn't happen creates doubt in those listening to you intelligently.

Accepting the truth, the whole truth, is the best and only way things are going to be better.

You seem to be more interested in teaching history than laying a firm foundation of Christ and His doctrine in peoples lives.


History is great, but when you begin to change the Bible n favor of your history lesson, then there is a problem.



JLB

 

[JLB]

exactly strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. this is exactly what is happening Born again by the spirit will stay in my Bible

I certainly agree with you, sir.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Do you believe that people who rely on the Holy Spirit, to guide them and teach them from the scriptures are mystics?


Were you aware that a promise of the New Covenant is that we will be taught by the Lord.


Were you aware this is what the Lord has always desired, as we see from the garden of eden?


Were you aware that Abraham walked in this kind of relationship with the Lord?


Jeremiah says it it this way -


“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34




John says it this way -


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
1 John 2:27



Peter -


He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17





JLB

So are you claiming that the Holy Spirit taught you the alphabet and how to read?

How about mathematics?

What about history?

What about anthropology?
Or sociology or psychology enough to get along in society?

Fashion sense enough not to wear robes but pants and shirts.

How about recognizing the difference between a simile and metaphor?

There's a science to artistic expression...and the blending of the two is Hermeneutics. Jesus spent 3 ½ years teaching the Apostles. Sure the Holy Spirit was involved. But Peter made mistakes after Jesus ascended too. And Peter was their leader.

Paul was a great leader for the gentiles...but he had his issues as well. And his apprentice Timothy had his issues as well.

None of Paul's letters or Peter's letters or much of the New Testament would be needed if it was all Holy Spirit all the time. Obviously God gave us brains to use...and some of us the desire to know more deeply what was said and why it was said.

 

[JLB]

So are you claiming that the Holy Spirit taught you the alphabet and how to read?

How about mathematics?

What about history?

What about anthropology?
Or sociology or psychology enough to get along in society?

John,


Please get a hold of yourself.


I’m discussing the scriptures.



What does building a solid foundation of Christ and His doctrine from the scriptures, have to do with anthropology, or the like.


This is why you claim Jesus didn’t say you must be born again, even though the context clearly does.


Because you spend your time chasing man’s commentary.


You are a good man John.


I believe you have a good heart.


Please invest your time in prayer seeking the Lord for wisdom and understanding of His word.




JLB

 

[JLB]

But Peter made mistakes after Jesus ascended too. And Peter was their leader.

Yes Peter made mistakes.


The point is?

 

[JLB]

Paul was a great leader for the gentiles...but he had his issues as well. And his apprentice Timothy had his issues as well.

None of Paul's letters or Peter's letters or much of the New Testament would be needed if it was all Holy Spirit all the time. Obviously God gave us brains to use...and some of us the desire to know more deeply what was said and why it was said.

The Holy Spirit leads us and enlighten’s us concerning the scriptures. He teaches us.


Yes God gave us brains.


However it’s your mind, that needs to be renewed with the truth of God’s word.


Paul was learned in the scriptures.


If we are going to teach the scriptures then we also need to learned as well, through study and the leading of the Spirit.



If we are going to teach anthropology then we need to study that and be learned in those things.



Here in this thread, we are discussing scripture, not sociology.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The different beliefs are the result of mans studies. Jesus understood exactly what born of the Spirit meant Nicodemus didn't at that time. We now, (beginning with Pentecost), have a common frame of reference to understand what Jesus taught. "Christ in us"

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. What is written is the source of our understanding not mans studies as they differ. Though mans studies may be considered. And Jesus is but a prayer away.

Born anew by the Spirit of God by the will of the Fathers promise carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord. No one enters the Kingdom of God apart from Jesus.

Born of the Spirit=Born of God as in the Children of God.

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

In those days even such, simple to us, matters were discussed. We have the whole testimony.

They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant

What do you mean by your last sentence?

 

[Randy]

What do you mean by your last sentence?

That even the apostles at that time didn't understand what rising from the dead meant.

 

[Randy]

I have always wondered why people refer to Pentecost as the event or beginning of people being born again, or as you say,
“Christ in us”.


To me, Pentecost was when the baptism with the Holy Spirit began, which comes after a person is born again.


Jesus said that new wine doesn’t go in old wine skins.



JLB

There are Holiness denoms that believe in a 2nd work of grace subsequent to being born again. I respect them but don't hold to such a 2nd work of grace that changes my being.

Randy

 

[JLB]

There are Holiness denoms that believe in a 2nd work of grace subsequent to being born again. I respect them but don't hold to such a 2nd work of grace that changes my being.

Randy

This second work of grace, is it the baptism of the Holy Spirit?


JLB

 

[ezra]

second work of grace

is nothing more than a man made term Grace has a continuing work

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, Grace teaches
1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[JLB]

is nothing more than a man made term Grace has a continuing work

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, Grace teaches
1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

I believe the Spirit of Grace continues to work in our lives.


I also believe we are obligated to obey the Spirit of Grace, just as the children of Israel were under the law, meaning obligated to obey the law, so now we are under grace, and therefore under obligation to obey grace; The Spirit of Grace.


This begins with initial salvation, and ends when we receive the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith.





JLB

 

[ezra]

what i just posted continually man has created doctrines out of one scripture .one group believes speak in tongues to be filled one does not one believes osas one does not.. just like thus post john 3 in error .the church is busy being doctrine correct . the lose sight of the great commission

 

[JohnDB]

The Holy Spirit leads us and enlighten’s us concerning the scriptures. He teaches us.


Yes God gave us brains.


However it’s your mind, that needs to be renewed with the truth of God’s word.


Paul was learned in the scriptures.


If we are going to teach the scriptures then we also need to learned as well, through study and the leading of the Spirit.



If we are going to teach anthropology then we need to study that and be learned in those things.



Here in this thread, we are discussing scripture, not sociology.





JLB

My reply is about your specific use of the sciences when interpreting scriptures.

You obviously use some...can't do it without any.

So you are in disagreement about how much and how many sciences to use.
I use more than you do...a LOT more.

You use some artistic interpretation to understanding scriptures...I use a LOT more once again.

The Holy Spirit is very much a guide into truth...He guided me to learn how to learn and study...to apply deductive reasoning and comprehension to what is written.

You, on the other hand, have alluded that the Holy Spirit has granted you some kind of mystical power of interpretation...if not that then you will have to explain yourself further so we all can understand your hermeneutic principles.
Don't misunderstand, I firmly believe in prayer and that God not only is listening but answers them according to His desires. Since He is God and I'm not I'll trust his answers...not my requests to be in his desires.

And on top of all this you allude to accuse me of not being in control of myself. That either in a fit of rage or extreme contempt I have assailed your character. (How questions of such obvious answers do this is beyond my ability to reason...maybe the internet isn't for you if you perceive such things)
But in truth, I am God's slave. He's the boss. Argue with him about my character if you wish. But not me...I'm just using the force from star trek to be at one with the universe over in my neck of the woods.

 

[JLB]

My reply is about your specific use of the sciences when interpreting scriptures.

I don’t use science.


I read what the scripture says and the context to gain understanding of the text, through the Spirit.


Here’s an example -


And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Matthew 13:10-12

• For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

Do you know one must have, in order that what he has, will not be taken from him?


To know the answer, you must read the context and be guided to understand.




JLB

 

[ezra]

i use all types sources in my studies .internet commentaries strong's Lexicon . some times i just google the scripture ..be surprised what good stuff you find example
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.
— 2 Corinthians 10:4
In effect, Paul is saying, “Don’t look to your flesh for the weapons or strategies I’m describing to you because they do not arise out of natural talent, mental exercises, or human efforts. These are spiritual weapons and spiritual strategies, and they come from the spiritual realm.”

When you put all these Greek words together, Second Corinthians 10:4 carries this idea:​

“Our God-given weapons are to be used in connection with a divine strategy. But don’t look to the flesh to find that strategy, for the battle plan you need is not going to arise out of your own natural talent, mental exercises, or human effort.”

i found this by searching for the weapons of our warfare . yes i have discernment enough to know when red flags come up . another time i was study he became sin 2 Corinthians 5:21. a commentator said it would be worded better to say he became a sin sacrifice .

the post has turned to like 2 bulls in opposite fields . stand at the corner of the fence booing at each other..

do i expect this to fly ? nope it will be like water on a duck back slide off..lol