The Order of Salvation

[JLB]

There has been some discussion in the main forum about the order of salvation, so I thought would be a good place to start as a thread topic.

If anyone has a specific thread topic in mind that they want to teach or discuss, please pm me with the info.


I believe the scriptures are clear about when a person is saved initially.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:8-10


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.



To me the scriptures show us that we must believe, in order to be saved.

IOW, salvation is the result of believing. Not the other way around.



Any thoughts?




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

H J,

I like to refer to Acts.
The jailer asked what he should do to be saved and the answer was:
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Acts 16:30-31

So the order would be:

1. BELIEVE
2. SALVATION

Every verse in the N.T. confirms that belief must come first...THEN salvation.

I really find it difficult to understand how any other order could be accepted.

Jesus said I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME
John 12:32

Surely there must be a condition to this drawing...otherwise it would be universalism.

Jesus DRAWS ALL MEN,,,,but the condition is that they must accept Him....through faith and trust.

 

[JLB]

H J,

I like to refer to Acts.
The jailer asked what he should do to be saved and the answer was:
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Acts 16:30-31

So the order would be:

1. BELIEVE
2. SALVATION

Every verse in the N.T. confirms that belief must come first...THEN salvation.

I really find it difficult to understand how any other order could be accepted.

Jesus said I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO ME
John 12:32

Surely there must be a condition to this drawing...otherwise it would be universalism.

Jesus DRAWS ALL MEN,,,,but the condition is that they must accept Him....through faith and trust.

Agreed. In addition to what you said, I would to add that the Greek and especially the Hebrew and very dynamic as compared to English. Understanding the meaning of the original language as it was written, compared to our post modern understanding of words in the scriptures is crucial to understanding the full scope and meaning of what is being conveyed to us in the Bible.


IOW, if we misunderstand the full meaning of a word, we could very well misunderstand the doctrine that is composed of these words.


If the word “believe” is a condition to receiving salvation, then it would behoove is to fully understand the fullness of what the biblical word believe means, and especially the way Jesus meant it.


I will address this in another thread called: Defining and understanding biblical words and terms.


I’m hoping Oz and others will help develop that thread, especially the nuances of the Greek and Hebrew language.




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

This is interesting, because there are so many aspects.
Paul says the world knows who God is.

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Rom 1:20

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:17

9 now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.
2 Cor 7:9-11

8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:9

There is a real sense of dualism, things acting together, a point of realisation, of seeing the light of how things are, and as a result of seeing this being spurred into action, which brings about change. In a sense there is the facts of what salvation is and means, who Jesus is, and what knowing Him demands of us. There is then the faith to see the next step, and taking it through confession of faith, repentance and love.

Scripture seems to display a multifaceted aspect of this. Belief saves you, confession brings forgiveness,

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
James 5:16

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

The apostles took one thing above anything as a sign of spiritual birth, the Holy Spirit expressed through His people. It is why they said, God has accepted gentiles into the family of God, because the Holy Spirit fell on them just like He fell on the apostles.

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

What seems apparent is to enter the Kingdom, repentance, confession of sins are essential, knowing our failure and our need, before we can surrender and open up to Jesus and let Jesus in.

Some from the free grace community embrace believers who accept Jesus as loving them without admitting they are sinners in need of repentance and a righteous walk, so their faith or belief is not that of Paul and the Apostles. The walk of the straight path does not exist, or even forgiveness personally experienced, or grief for sin and harm done, or even acknowledging harm in daily life.

Paul preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Without repentance the Holy Spirit will not come.
One could argue it is the Holy Spirit that bring conviction.

46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-47

7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgement, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 16:7-11

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. In addition to what you said, I would to add that the Greek and especially the Hebrew and very dynamic as compared to English. Understanding the meaning of the original language as it was written, compared to our post modern understanding of words in the scriptures is crucial to understanding the full scope and meaning of what is being conveyed to us in the Bible.


IOW, if we misunderstand the full meaning of a word, we could very well misunderstand the doctrine that is composed of these words.


If the word “believe” is a condition to receiving salvation, then it would behoove is to fully understand the fullness of what the biblical word believe means, and especially the way Jesus meant it.


I will address this in another thread called: Defining and understanding biblical words and terms.


I’m hoping Oz and others will help develop that thread, especially the nuances of the Greek and Hebrew language.




JLB

In this we somewhat disagree J.
Not totally,,,but sometimes we get caught up in what words mean and I find it incredible that two different persons come up with two different ideas EVEN HERE! using the same Lexicon..usually Strong's.

I agree as to the meaning of the word BELIEVE and how important it is to understand it.

But my point would be...WHY is it so important to understand it when it just implies everything the N.T. states!

THAT WE ARE TO OBEY GOD.

Believe means to obey and those that do not agree with this will fight the meaning ad infinitum. ....even though this is what it means,,,plus other meanings. But the end line is obedience.
If we believe in Jesus...we obey Him.
Otherwise we do not believe in Him....(the negative proves this....UNBELIEF = DISOBEDIENCE,,,or V V).

Just a thought.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is interesting, because there are so many aspects.
Paul says the world knows who God is.

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Rom 1:20

17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:17

9 now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.
10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done.
2 Cor 7:9-11

8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10:9

There is a real sense of dualism, things acting together, a point of realisation, of seeing the light of how things are, and as a result of seeing this being spurred into action, which brings about change. In a sense there is the facts of what salvation is and means, who Jesus is, and what knowing Him demands of us. There is then the faith to see the next step, and taking it through confession of faith, repentance and love.

Scripture seems to display a multifaceted aspect of this. Belief saves you, confession brings forgiveness,

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.
James 5:16

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

The apostles took one thing above anything as a sign of spiritual birth, the Holy Spirit expressed through His people. It is why they said, God has accepted gentiles into the family of God, because the Holy Spirit fell on them just like He fell on the apostles.

21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,
22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 1:21-22

What seems apparent is to enter the Kingdom, repentance, confession of sins are essential, knowing our failure and our need, before we can surrender and open up to Jesus and let Jesus in.

Some from the free grace community embrace believers who accept Jesus as loving them without admitting they are sinners in need of repentance and a righteous walk, so their faith or belief is not that of Paul and the Apostles. The walk of the straight path does not exist, or even forgiveness personally experienced, or grief for sin and harm done, or even acknowledging harm in daily life.

Paul preached

I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

Without repentance the Holy Spirit will not come.
One could argue it is the Holy Spirit that bring conviction.

46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-47

7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and in regard to judgement, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 16:7-11

So many good thoughts!
Later....

 

[JLB]

In this we somewhat disagree J.
Not totally,,,but sometimes we get caught up in what words mean and I find it incredible that two different persons come up with two different ideas EVEN HERE! using the same Lexicon..usually Strong's.

I agree as to the meaning of the word BELIEVE and how important it is to understand it.

But my point would be...WHY is it so important to understand it when it just implies everything the N.T. states!

THAT WE ARE TO OBEY GOD.

Believe means to obey and those that do not agree with this will fight the meaning ad infinitum. ....even though this is what it means,,,plus other meanings. But the end line is obedience.
If we believe in Jesus...we obey Him.
Otherwise we do not believe in Him....(the negative proves this....UNBELIEF = DISOBEDIENCE,,,or V V).

Just a thought.

Amen.

The order of salvation is to believe, which results in obeying the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel results in salvation.


From what I see from the full counsel of the word, obeying the Gospel is an eternal commitment to serve and obey Him.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.

The order of salvation is to believe, which results in obeying the Gospel.

Obeying the Gospel results in salvation.


From what I see from the full counsel of the word, obeying the Gospel is an eternal commitment to serve and obey Him.



JLB

Right. The entire N.T. attests to the fact that we must obey.
Anyone coming away from it without this understanding is listening to a man-made belief that is not correct.

It can be called Easy Believism...
Hyper Grace...
These are movements....they move away from the original message. Which happens to be very simple....
Love God
Love yourself
Love your neighbor

Jesus commanded this.

 

[PeterJens]

Right. The entire N.T. attests to the fact that we must obey.
Anyone coming away from it without this understanding is listening to a man-made belief that is not correct.

It can be called Easy Believism...
Hyper Grace...
These are movements....they move away from the original message. Which happens to be very simple....
Love God
Love yourself
Love your neighbor

Jesus commanded this.

There is a side to our preaching and sharing which is addressing the weakness of our nature, not to compromise, but to understand the process that bring about trauma and addiction, OCD, PTSD, a desire to be loved without proper boundaries, the belief one is totally alone never to be understood, a history of emotional instability ie anger, rage, frustration, outbursts etc.

I have heard of people in love with Jesus, optimistic about the internal conflicts, knocked back in their chair by defeat and addictive behaviour patterns they find hard to understand, control, deal with.

Deep hurts in a society incapable of talking at that level, think love is just a superficial gloss of pretend, on a layer of trauma and confusion.

I suspect those who have never faced themselves but embraced the theology, find easy believism provides them with a solution without the cross or sacrifice and the belief such a proposition was evil deception pushed by legalistic hypocrites.

My answer to this is to talk about the heart, and love, love ruling our hearts in the Holy Spirit. I am convinced it is our distortions that make things look impossible, and once these are pulled straight, it does become easy.

Ironically our intellectual age might be its own failing, making issues profound when repentance and humbleness changes everything. Without an open heart nothing changes, walking in the light matters above all else.

"if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
1 John 1:7

In a world where people talk very little, have distant relationships one with another, and have few real traumas, some of the simplest issues get made into mountains and stubborn hearts simply refuse to move because they know so little and have got so much out of proportion.

 

[JLB]

Right. The entire N.T. attests to the fact that we must obey.
Anyone coming away from it without this understanding is listening to a man-made belief that is not correct.

It can be called Easy Believism...
Hyper Grace...
These are movements....they move away from the original message. Which happens to be very simple....
Love God
Love yourself
Love your neighbor

Jesus commanded this.

Yes.

How desperate I am for His grace, to walk with Him. To walk before Him and be blameless.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Yes.

How desperate I am for His grace, to walk with Him. To walk before Him and be blameless.


JLB

I have a simple question. Are you not currently those things in Christ already, filled with the Holy Spirit, anointed, cleansed and made Holy?

Now we are these things by faith, but they become real in our confession of faith and exercising praise and worship to the King.
Paul described himself in these words,

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

In a sense we need to know that this is Christs gift to us today were we are, here and now in repentance and faith, knowing we are His, Amen.

 

[JLB]

Are you not currently those things in Christ already, filled with the Holy Spirit, anointed, cleansed and made Holy?

Yes, however we are to pursue holiness.

A life of purity comes from dealing with the desires of our flesh, separiating ourselves from the corrupting pollutions of this world.


New challenges arise almost daily.


Nevertheless we follow the leading of the Spirit in the paths of righteousness.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

One brother when talking about Holiness would put up signs about speeding, and saying speeding defined sin. He had committed a cross-over from Gods commandments to mans commandments without blinking and then condemning people to hell for breaking mans rules.

Speeding is a police restriction which brings a penalty if you are caught breaking the rule. The incentive is to not be fined by keeping to the limit. I constantly drive above the limit because it is easier in traffic this way, but it is not sin.

So many believers set up their own rules and then condemn themselves or others for breaking them, in dress, in behaviour, in expression, in words. We feel bad, or not acceptable, and so we regard ourselves as not fit.

But God is very clear. Do not add.

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deut 4:2

Interestingly the same group as mentioned above will claim we are diluting Gods law, by defining what it actually means, whereas they just want to extend legalism beyond the possible to make a mockery of it, as just a way of creating and justifying failure.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, however we are to pursue holiness.

A life of purity comes from dealing with the desires of our flesh, separiating ourselves from the corrupting pollutions of this world.


New challenges arise almost daily.


Nevertheless we follow the leading of the Spirit in the paths of righteousness.



JLB

"Corrupting pollutions" "New challenges"

Years ago I decided to watch series on TV, go and see films. Now various issues and approaches would appear, which as an audience I am asked to respond to.
What I do is start to remove myself and ask would I behave like that? What is wrong with the responses of the characters and why is their approach doomed to failure?
Why do they appear to succeed, and what does that tell me about the world?

Films often portray the current culture and its acceptable approaches to life. Cutting oneself off from these, does not change the challenge they pose or the answer we bring in Christ.

Let me take an example. A woman is portrayed in a film, vulnerable, needing affection, and open to a casual relationship that quickly develops. But in reality, such relationship lead to hurt and pain, need and love being discarded as people continue on like ships in the night, leaving a sense of betrayal and loss. If I met such a woman, I would share my heart in Christ, give them pointers to find help and move on.

I actually live in a social world with 3 lonely women who would like a casual relationship, but that would destroy them and me. I keep my distance, making sure it is understood that boundary will not be crossed. Sadly I know of people who would not even think putting a boundary in place was sensible, taking advantage is the only option when it is offered. Such thinking has permiated our culture, so we need to understand the lostness they are creating in their hearts and in those around them.

If we cannot answer these basic issues, do we really know Jesus and the fundamentals of our hearts and His gospel of grace? I am asking this, because it is here in the world of belonging and loneliness that urban society is dying.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.

How desperate I am for His grace, to walk with Him. To walk before Him and be blameless.


JLB

I think that anyone that loves God will be feeling this way.

Those that insist that one could sin continually and just lose FELLOWSHIP with God does make me feel very frustrated at times.

One because their soul is in danger and they don't even know it.
Two because they teach, by having others read what they write, a doctrine that is damning.

Where is this desperation in those persons?

It's not there.

 

[PeterJens]

I think that anyone that loves God will be feeling this way.

Those that insist that one could sin continually and just lose FELLOWSHIP with God does make me feel very frustrated at times.

One because their soul is in danger and they don't even know it.
Two because they teach, by having others read what they write, a doctrine that is damning.

Where is this desperation in those persons?

It's not there.

I have wondered about the continual reading of condemnation of people who simply quote scripture about forgiving people from the heart, to be responded to as if this is a denial of the gospel.

Insanity works when a way of thinking about the world takes over from the facts of life and what actually is. Jesus talked about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and those who will say anything to support their ideology over the simple realities of Christ have probably crossed that line.

When Jesus appears the same responses will be produced, except they will find no sense as the Lord will be there. To cope one would have to pull apart everything that made that individual, and all that would be left would be a wreck.

From our perspective there is only sadness and regret that such force would be used so pointlessly to justify themselves and where they stand. But so was the rich young man when he finally realised Jesus was asking him to take the real step of eternal life, to establish a relationship with the Lord, and it was this he could not do without the security of wealth around him to really keep him safe. He liked being special, but to take a place with normal people, to become a sinner in need of a saviour, is 100% the opposite of what he lived for.

But without the example, I personally would not have believed it possible, because that would not be my reaction. Jesus in front of you saying you can learn from Him front row seat. I mean, wow, really wow. In those days tomorrow you could get a cut, be infected and be gone. People chose to be gladiators because death in the ring was better than life outside. Things were brutal, really brutal. God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

I have wondered about the continual reading of condemnation of people who simply quote scripture about forgiving people from the heart, to be responded to as if this is a denial of the gospel.

Agreed. Some feel that we are to forgive only when repentance on their part is show. This could not be further from the truth, since we are to forgive in any case...even if not asked. Jesus forgave his crucifiers even though they never asked for this.

Insanity works when a way of thinking about the world takes over from the facts of life and what actually is. Jesus talked about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and those who will say anything to support their ideology over the simple realities of Christ have probably crossed that line.

Interesting..there's another member here that agrees with you although I had never thought of it this way. Yes, perhaps it is blasphemy, after all what does it mean but attributing evil to God.

When Jesus appears the same responses will be produced, except they will find no sense as the Lord will be there. To cope one would have to pull apart everything that made that individual, and all that would be left would be a wreck.

From our perspective there is only sadness and regret that such force would be used so pointlessly to justify themselves and where they stand. But so was the rich young man when he finally realised Jesus was asking him to take the real step of eternal life, to establish a relationship with the Lord, and it was this he could not do without the security of wealth around him to really keep him safe. He liked being special, but to take a place with normal people, to become a sinner in need of a saviour, is 100% the opposite of what he lived for.

But without the example, I personally would not have believed it possible, because that would not be my reaction. Jesus in front of you saying you can learn from Him front row seat. I mean, wow, really wow. In those days tomorrow you could get a cut, be infected and be gone. People chose to be gladiators because death in the ring was better than life outside. Things were brutal, really brutal. God bless you

As He does you.

 

[JLB]

Those that insist that one could sin continually and just lose FELLOWSHIP with God does make me feel very frustrated at times.

We lose relationship with God.

We become lost, in which we must turn back to Him (repent) and be reconciled back to Him.


The prodigal son teaches this, as does the parable of the lost sheep.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

We lose relationship with God.

We become lost, in which we must turn back to Him (repent) and be reconciled back to Him.


The prodigal son teaches this, as does the parable of the lost sheep.




JLB

Of course.
There are some that believe we lose FELLOWSHIP and not salvation.
I don't see this anywhere in the N.T.

 

[JLB]

Of course.
There are some that believe we lose FELLOWSHIP and not salvation.
I don't see this anywhere in the N.T.

Your probably not using the right bible.


Try using the “Hyper Grace Reformed Bible”.




JLB