[__ Science __ ] The Flood, what happened?

[Barbarian]

Anything outside of our own salvation is for our own learning in areas of our own interest as we get to know all the different people we read about in scripture and where actual places existed and the events that took place.

So you're talking about Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Canaanite/Elamite sources?

 

[Barbarian]

Wrong. The Bible does trump scientific knowledge.

Human interpretation of the Bible does not trump science. If nature and scripture seem to be at odds, it is because we have misunderstood one or both of them. And either is equally likely.

Science doesn't know everything.

Nor does theology. Scientists are humble enough to admit that they don't know everything. Theologians often lack that humility. And hence the problems.

God does. Science is still learning. God knows all things already.

But only one person is God. And he doesn't post here.
Nothing wrong with theology, as long as it doesn't conflict with reality. Then theology needs to take a back seat.

 

[Barbarian]

The Bible does say the flood was world wide. See posts #(82,83), which you ignored.

As you have seen, it does not say it was worldwide. The term for "world" is "tebel", not "erets" ("land"), which is what is used in the flood story. This fact, which you have ignored, shows that your new interpretation of scripture is not correct.

 

[Barbarian]

The geologic column does not support the idea of a global flood

So?

The geologic column is God's creation as well. It is an error to claim that God contradicts Himself. The Bible is not the only authoritative information from God.

 

[Barbarian]

My thought is that if it's not plainly stated, we can't conclude that it's true. Christians hold a number of contradictory ideas about this; it if was plain to see, every Christian would see it.

It is plainly stated. You just don't believe it.

I know you want to believe it. But as you see, your new doctrine is not held by even a majority of Christians. That being so, there's no way to claim it's plainly stated.

 

[for_his_glory]

So you're talking about Sumerian, Akkadian, Egyptian, and Canaanite/Elamite sources?

No, strictly the scriptures.

 

[Barbarian]

The Bible does not 'trump' scientific evidence! Indeed the idea that it does is responsible for more folk turning their backs on God than any other. God intended us to use our brains as something other than draft excluders!

This is the real damage that YEC does to God's church. Many people, who might otherwise come to God, are misled into believing that they must believe what YECs believe.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationism. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.

Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

A Christian testimony from an old earth creationist. Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

www.oldearth.org

 

[for_his_glory]

My thought is that if it's not plainly stated, we can't conclude that it's true. Christians hold a number of contradictory ideas about this; it if was plain to see, every Christian would see it.

I know you want to believe it. But as you see, your new doctrine is not held by even a majority of Christians. That being so, there's no way to claim it's plainly stated.

Nothing new under the sun that God has not already revealed to us. Science and God's Omnipotence can not mix as it is the same with flesh and Spirit as the flesh is enmity against the Spirit, Romans 8:7

 

[Barbarian]

No, strictly the scriptures.

So what did you mean here:

It does take a little more than just reading the scriptures as it takes studying Genealogy, history, culture, ancient and modern maps to understand certain things in its full context. But you believe how you will.

 

[Barbarian]

Nothing new under the sun that God has not already revealed to us. Science and God's Omnipotence can not mix as it is the same with flesh and Spirit as the flesh is enmity against the Spirit, Romans 8:7

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Not only are God's qualities clearly seen in what He has created, His goodness is clearly seen by all humans:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

 

[for_his_glory]

So what did you mean here:

Pretty much self explanatory as when you search the scriptures with the history, culture and various locations it shows us exactly that the flood was global and not centrally located. It's called doing your own homework.

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Not only are God's qualities clearly seen in what He has created, His goodness is clearly seen by all humans:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Not sure what the relevance of this has to do with the topic of discussion. Can you clarify this?

 

[Quantrill]

Human interpretation of the Bible does not trump science. If nature and scripture seem to be at odds, it is because we have misunderstood one or both of them. And either is equally likely.

Nor does theology. Scientists are humble enough to admit that they don't know everything. Theologians often lack that humility. And hence the problems.

But only one person is God. And he doesn't post here.
Nothing wrong with theology, as long as it doesn't conflict with reality. Then theology needs to take a back seat.

You changed your tune. You said first that science trumps the Bible. Now you say 'human interpretation' of the Bible does not trump science. You don't know what you believe. But it is clear, you don't believe the Bible.

Science doesn't know everything? Good to know. But God does. And that is why science does not trump the Bible.

But the Bible is the Word of God. So, the Person of God has given us what we need to know. And when science conflicts with God, then science is wrong.

You say 'theology is not wrong when it doesn't conflict with reality'. Reality being 'science' of course. Of course you would say that. Your faith is not in God. It is in science. You believe of god only what your science can tell you. Not what the Bible tells you. You are full of....unbelief.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

As you have seen, it does not say it was worldwide. The term for "world" is "tebel", not "erets" ("land"), which is what is used in the flood story. This fact, which you have ignored, shows that your new interpretation of scripture is not correct.

This argument has already been proven to be empty. The same word is used for the earth in (Gen. 1:1). This is almost funny as it is the only argument that you present.

So, tell me, why is the same term used for earth in (Gen. 1:1)?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The geologic column is God's creation as well. It is an error to claim that God contradicts Himself. The Bible is not the only authoritative information from God.

If your 'geologic column' contradicts the Bible, then your 'geologic column' is wrong. Remember, you already confessed the inability of science to know all things. And concerning God....it knows nothing.

Oh yes, the Bible is the only authoritative information from God. You science is incomplete, mistaken, and always having to change it's mind. Yet you trust it over God. Foolish.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

My thought is that if it's not plainly stated, we can't conclude that it's true. Christians hold a number of contradictory ideas about this; it if was plain to see, every Christian would see it.

I know you want to believe it. But as you see, your new doctrine is not held by even a majority of Christians. That being so, there's no way to claim it's plainly stated.

If what is not plainly stated?

What 'new doctrine' of mine?

Quantrill

 

[Barbarian]

If what is not plainly stated?

Your new doctrine of a worldwide flood, which as you see is not indicated in Genesis. If God actually said so, Christians would all agree on it. But we don't.

 

[Barbarian]

If your 'geologic column' contradicts the Bible, then your 'geologic column' is wrong. Remember, you already confessed the inability of science to know all things. And concerning God....it knows nothing.

If reality and your interpretation of the Bible conflict than your interpretation is wrong.

Oh yes, the Bible is the only authoritative information from God.

God says otherwise:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

The Bible itself says that it's not the only authoritative information from God.

 

[Barbarian]

This argument has already been proven to be empty. The same word is used for the earth in (Gen. 1:1).

Nope. If it is, then (for example) "erets Israel" means "the world Israel."

In Genesis 1, God is speaking of land, not the world.

Which is why He uses the Hebrew word for land, instead of the word for world.

As with other verses in this chapter, Genesis uses the term 'erets for "earth," rather than other terms such as tebel. The Hebrew word 'erets is often used in a regional or symbolic sense, while tebel is a specific reference to the entire planet. This is part of the ongoing debate over whether or not the flood is a planetary event, or something confined to the regions populated by men. In any case, the waters accomplish their intended task: wiping out sinful mankind, and sparing only Noah and his family.

What does Genesis 7:17 mean?

Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. - What is the meaning of Genesis 7:17?

www.bibleref.com

 

[Barbarian]

You changed your tune. You said first that science trumps the Bible.

No, you just made that up. I never said that.

Now you say 'human interpretation' of the Bible does not trump science.

I said that if your interpretation of the Bible is not consistent with nature, you have misunderstood one or both of them.

You don't know what you believe.

I you had thought out more carefully what you believe, you probably wouldn't feel the need to make up things and claim that I said them. I think you want to believe the Bible, but only on your terms. God knows everything, but you don't.

If you had more faith in God, you'd have fewer difficulties in understanding His word. Instead of wanting it your way, why not just approach God with an open heart and tell Him you want it His way?