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rogerg said:
Hi wondering


I see in your reply that you referenced a Bible different than the one I use. Therefore, since we apparently trust different spiritual sources, it will be very difficult for us to come to agreement on spiritual tenets using them. However, I think there are two points/questions at which our basic perspectives diverge. The answers to which will allow us to either find common ground or realize that can never happen. The questions:

1) Is Jesus Christ the Savior?
2) is it possible to trust the efficacy of Jesus's salvation offering too much?
Click to expand...
My goodness Roger,,,,
Have you not studied the church Fathers?!
Do you know who Augustine is?

I'm not referring to a bible.
I read the NASB.
I'm referring to writings of men taught by the Apostles.

You, on the other hand, refer to the teachings of John Calvin, a common man NOT taught by the Apostles.

Your two questions are rather silly for you to ask.
If you have such questions after all the typing I've done,,,it makes me wonder if you read anything I wrote.

Maybe you're being honest....
Maybe you're pulling my leg.
Difficult to tell.

You should, however learn some church history...it would be of help to your understanding of the bible.
 
theMadJW said:
We are to follow his EXAMPLE- and our warfare is against every teaching lying about God.
We love people but HATE their foul beliefs about God.
Click to expand...
It's fine to hate false teaching. But, if you want people to listen to you, you've got to treat them respectfully. If you believe a teaching is wrong, explain why. Lay out your argument for others to engage. Many of the people you address may have wrong beliefs and not know it. Unless you explain how those beliefs are wrong why would they listen? There are plenty of people out there teaching wrong things, why should they believe yours? You've got to make the case for why you're correct. But, even if you prove your point beyond a shadow of a doubt, there are still going to be people who won't listen. At that point just move on.
 
wondering said:
My goodness Roger,,,,
Have you not studied the church Fathers?!
Do you know who Augustine is?

I'm not referring to a bible.
I read the NASB.
I'm referring to writings of men taught by the Apostles.

You, on the other hand, refer to the teachings of John Calvin, a common man NOT taught by the Apostles.

Your two questions are rather silly for you to ask.
If you have such questions after all the typing I've done,,,it makes me wonder if you read anything I wrote.

Maybe you're being honest....
Maybe you're pulling my leg.
Difficult to tell.

You should, however learn some church history...it would be of help to your understanding of the bible.
Click to expand...
It's confirmation bias.
 
theMadJW said:
View attachment 11422

Well, we are to ONLY ones that worship Jesus' God and Father, as he did.
What do you think!
Click to expand...
What I think is not important.
However there are those that do think important ideas.

One group would be the Apostles.
Should we not believe them?
Why?

Another group is those that came immediately after them and were taught by them,,,the Apostalic Fathers. Should we not believe them either?
Why?

Both groups died horrible deaths.
Why would they want to for lies?

Why are you mad at Jesus for what
THEY taught??
 
wondering said:
Hi Butch
I think we all reach a point where we just have to depend on our common sense, which God gave to us.

What you've stated above is very important.
If we worship a creator God that created the universe and humans, with no love for them and picks some (or passes over them - same thing)
for eternal torment, like a common sadist, then we are indeed worshipping a cruel God that is to be feared and not loved.

What a contradiction when the bible, and Jesus, teach that He IS love and that we are to seek Him.

This does not seem to bother the reformed.
They don't see the contradiction.
Click to expand...
Hi Wondering,

I think a lot of time we don't think through the implications of our beliefs. I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment and I knew the Bible said God is love. However, I never really tried to reconcile it until I began a very deep and lengthy study of the doctrine. I began a study where I set aside my beliefs about the subject and looked at the Scriptures at face value, not trying to make them fit what I beleived. After studying concepts like, what is a man and what is death, and what do the words, death, spirit, and soul mean, and considering related doctrines I (we, others where in the study) came to the conclusion that the Bible didn't teach the doctrine of Eternal Conacious Torment. One of the things we did in that study was to consider how our doctrines reflected on God's character. How the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment reflected on God's character is one of the reasons we rejected it.
 
JLB said:
Faith comes from Christ to us when we hear Him.


It is now our faith, and if we obey what we hear, then the faith we received comes alive, is activated to accomplish what God sent it to do.


If we don’t obey what we hear then the faith we received remains dormant, dead and inactive, being incomplete, just as a body without a spirit is dead, being incomplete.



For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Contextually, “works” refers to the action of obedience to the word from God by which we received faith.



And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22

The action of obedience was for her to go forward to touch the hem of His garment. When she did, she was healed.


When we receive faith from God it is not earned, but is a gift.
Nevertheless the gift we receive is ours.
Therefore it is our faith.




JLB
Click to expand...
Yes, it is Our faith that saves us.
And it is this faith that makes us obey.
Some believe faith is a work.
Ephesians clearly states that it is a gift,,,included in the gift of salvation.
Comment please.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Wondering,

I think a lot of time we don't think through the implications of our beliefs. I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment and I knew the Bible said God is love. However, I never really tried to reconcile it until I began a very deep and lengthy study of the doctrine. I began a study where I set aside my beliefs about the subject and looked at the Scriptures at face value, not trying to make them fit what I beleived. After studying concepts like, what is a man and what is death, and what do the words, death, spirit, and soul mean, and considering related doctrines I (we, others where in the study) came to the conclusion that the Bible didn't teach the doctrine of Eternal Conacious Torment. One of the things we did in that study was to consider how our doctrines reflected on God's character. How the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment reflected on God's character is one of the reasons we rejected it.
Click to expand...
Yes, I know you believe this.
I know a Catholic priest that believes in annihilation for non believers. Another believes in hell but that it is not eternal.

I wonder if this would make a good thread,,,we might derail too much to get into this.

I'll tag you in?
But tomorrow...going on midnight here
 
wondering said:
My goodness Roger,,,,
Have you not studied the church Fathers?!
Do you know who Augustine is?
Click to expand...
Hi wondering,

The "church fathers" you refer to are those of a church I don't belong to anymore. Based upon the names you've used
I think I know which one it is. So, no, my trust for learning about things spiritual is in the Bible alone.
 
Christ and the Apostles said that soon false teaches, antichrist would flood in. It happened!
They brought in teaching and dogma ALIEN to Christ and the Apostles...
 
wondering said:
Yes, I know you believe this.
I know a Catholic priest that believes in annihilation for non believers. Another believes in hell but that it is not eternal.

I wonder if this would make a good thread,,,we might derail too much to get into this.

I'll tag you in?
But tomorrow...going on midnight here
Click to expand...
Ok, sounds good!
 
theMadJW said:
The truth is simple, lies are complex!
Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH. THE Lord God who became flesh.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:11-13



“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6






JLB
 
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theMadJW said:
Christ and the Apostles said that soon false teaches, antichrist would flood in. It happened!
They brought in teaching and dogma ALIEN to Christ and the Apostles...
Click to expand...

Yes, the Watchtower is just such an organization that perverts God word, and teaches false doctrine.


Please turn away from the Watchtower and believe the truth rather than their twisted doctrine.




JLB
 
theMadJW said:
View attachment 11422

Well, we are to ONLY ones that worship Jesus' God and Father, as he did.
What do you think!
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ created all things including the heavens and the earth. All the angels worship Him as Lord and God.


But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:6-10




JLB
 
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