Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[Hopeful]

Hopeful replied: Those verses refer to the vessel we are in.
They grow old and deteriorate.

Yes they grow old and deteriorate while in the grave, but yet are sown in sin. What about those who are alive at His coming as they to will put on incorruption, and their mortal shall have put on immortality, as all are changed in a twinkling of an eye in order to be caught up to Jesus in the air.

If the aging-deterioration of out skin and bones is accounted as sinful, then it must also apply to Jesus.
Our vessels ages and deteriorates while we still live in them.

His blood washed away ALL of my past sins...all of it.
It is written..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)
And Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
And Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
No sin remains after our baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus Christ.
We are perfected, sanctified and ready to do the Master's use.
It is written..."If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." (2 Tim 2:21)

It is written..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb 10:14)

BTW, I couldn't find any reference to "sown in sin" in the KJV of the bible.
Where did you see that?

As for those who are alive at the Lord's coming, they will indeed be granted the new, glorious bodies written of by Paul in Phil. 3:21.
" Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Phil 3:21)

 

[JLB]

If I wrote..."The day started slowly, and my car wouldn't start." ...I would indeed be tying the TWO thoughts together.
But they are two different thoughts nonetheless.

I thank God that I have been given the grace to see that those two verses apply to two different groups.
One applies to those walking in the light, while the other applies to those walking in darkness.
They don't cross-over.

It’s one verse. Not two verses.



But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If I wrote..."The day started slowly, and my car wouldn't start." ...I would indeed be tying the TWO thoughts together.
But they are two different thoughts nonetheless.

I thank God that I have been given the grace to see that those two verses apply to two different groups.
One applies to those walking in the light, while the other applies to those walking in darkness.
They don't cross-over.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8


Is John referring to born again Christians, or unbelievers in this verse?



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Surely it is "for the correction of something that is wrong".
But the discipline for running with under pressurized tires will be different from the discipline ascribed to those who partake of the Lord's supper with sin on them.
The discipline for never brushing your teeth or showering will be different from the discipline one receives for stealing from work.

Your analogies make no sense to me. What does car tires and hygiene have to do with God's discipline. We have to make sure we are worthy of partaking in the Lord's supper as we need to repent of any sin we might have before taking of it.

No, as I have known sin.
Since my repentance form sin, however, I am, as John says, "like Him".
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)
And..."Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

As a child of God we no longer willfully sin as we did in the past. I, and a few others, have already explained willful sin, but as scripture says we are also housed in this sinful body of flesh that will always sin, but in our spirit where the Holy Spirit dwells there is no sin. This is where 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 teaches that we will be changed before we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air as this sinful body of flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. For now we seek that perfection that is in Christ as we are perfected daily. Philippians 3

Not sure what you meant, here.

It was a simple question. Show me in scripture where any mortal man had no sin. Jesus is excluded from my question.

Would you kindly rephrase that?

All the prophets and disciples, including all of us, were/are of faith being born the seed of Abraham as it is the Spiritual seed of God renewed within our spiritual inner man that is spirit, not flesh and blood.

Are we not all the seed of faithful Abraham? Just because we have faith doesn't mean we will not go astray sometimes, but God's grace is sufficient to forgive us when we do and own up to our faults. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10

 

[for_his_glory]

If the aging-deterioration of out skin and bones is accounted as sinful, then it must also apply to Jesus.
Our vessels ages and deteriorates while we still live in them.

I have never said this actual flesh and bone are sinful. You need to get past this.

I am talking about the fleshly part of us that is characterized by indulgence of worldly appetites by the thoughts of our mind that we take action on. We need to be focusing on Spiritual things from above and not the things of the flesh (sinful outer man). But yet there are temptations we fall to at times when we lose focus, but even though God's grace does not give us a license to sin it is sufficient to forgive us when we do. If we willfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for that sin and we will pay the consequences for willful sin.

We no longer seek to sin as in our past, but to press forward as we strive for that perfection that is n Christ, but will never obtain that perfection in our lifetime. This is why those who are Christ own will be changed before being caught up to Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hopeful you present all the scriptures that speak about us being perfect as Christ is perfect, but neglect the scriptures that we have given you that show we are not yet there and how we try our best to run that race that is set before us. No one wins a race until they finish it crossing the finish line and none of us have finished the race that is set before us as Christ has not returned yet.

The teaching of sinless perfection causes a stumbling block to those who are yet young in the Lord without a whole lot of knowledge yet as this teaching makes them feel that they are not worthy as they still sin at times and will actually cause many to fall away from truth.

 

[Hopeful]

It’s one verse. Not two verses.

It is two different thoughts in one verse.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

If we walk in the light, (God), our sins have already been washed away.
There is no sin in God.

 

[Hopeful]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
Is John referring to born again Christians, or unbelievers in this verse?
JLB

He is referring to those who walk in the dark...sin.
It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness: ..." (Pro 4:19)

 

[Hopeful]

Your analogies make no sense to me. What does car tires and hygiene have to do with God's discipline. We have to make sure we are worthy of partaking in the Lord's supper as we need to repent of any sin we might have before taking of it.

Sorry to read that.

As a child of God we no longer willfully sin as we did in the past. I, and a few others, have already explained willful sin, but as scripture says we are also housed in this sinful body of flesh that will always sin, but in our spirit where the Holy Spirit dwells there is no sin. This is where 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 teaches that we will be changed before we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air as this sinful body of flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. For now we seek that perfection that is in Christ as we are perfected daily. Philippians 3

It is you who has added "sinful" to the verse.

It was a simple question. Show me in scripture where any mortal man had no sin. Jesus is excluded from my question.

John the Baptist.
It is written..."For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)
God won't remain in a polluted temple, so unless John betrayed the Lord during his life he was pure from day one to his last day.

All the prophets and disciples, including all of us, were/are of faith being born the seed of Abraham as it is the Spiritual seed of God renewed within our spiritual inner man that is spirit, not flesh and blood.

Why not reach a little higher and get reborn of God's own seed?
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

Are we not all the seed of faithful Abraham? Just because we have faith doesn't mean we will not go astray sometimes, but God's grace is sufficient to forgive us when we do and own up to our faults. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10

If we have faith in the below, we wont go astray.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
And..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Being born of Abraham will do you no good, as Esau and Judas Iscariot were both born of Abraham.
Get born of God and be made a new creature entirely !
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
By maintaining an "old" body, you announce to everyone that you are not a new creature.

 

[Hopeful]

I have never said this actual flesh and bone are sinful. You need to get past this.

That did seem to be the POV you and JLB have takes.

I am talking about the fleshly part of us that is characterized by indulgence of worldly appetites by the thoughts of our mind that we take action on. We need to be focusing on Spiritual things from above and not the things of the flesh (sinful outer man). But yet there are temptations we fall to at times when we lose focus, but even though God's grace does not give us a license to sin it is sufficient to forgive us when we do. If we willfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for that sin and we will pay the consequences for willful sin.

Then get crucified with Christ and kill it.
It is written..."God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:2-7)
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga 5:24)

We no longer seek to sin as in our past, but to press forward as we strive for that perfection that is n Christ, but will never obtain that perfection in our lifetime. This is why those who are Christ own will be changed before being caught up to Christ.

Quit striving for it and cease it...to the glory of God and of His Son Jesus Christ.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

 

[JLB]

It is two different thoughts in one verse.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


Again, you have ignored the subject matter of the verse as well as the sentence construction.

The subject of the verse is walking in light, as He is in the light.

The result of walking in the light as He is in the light, is we have fellowship with Him and with those who walk in the light with Him, AND the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

And being a conjuction, connects what was said with what is going to be said.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful you present all the scriptures that speak about us being perfect as Christ is perfect, but neglect the scriptures that we have given you that show we are not yet there and how we try our best to run that race that is set before us. No one wins a race until they finish it crossing the finish line and none of us have finished the race that is set before us as Christ has not returned yet.

The teaching of sinless perfection causes a stumbling block to those who are yet young in the Lord without a whole lot of knowledge yet as this teaching makes them feel that they are not worthy as they still sin at times and will actually cause many to fall away from truth.

Why would anybody want to be "in the Lord" without a hope of perfect obedience to Him?
The stumbling block for those wishing to earnestly serve God is the falsehood that it isn't possible.

 

[Hopeful]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
Again, you have ignored the subject matter of the verse as well as the sentence construction.

You have been taught that it as a way to keep sinning.
I have been taught that it is two different topics.
You seem to see the grace of God as a bandage, while I know it as a cure.

The subject of the verse is walking in light, as He is in the light.

If we walk in the light, we must be aware that the light is God..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
As there can be no sin in God who is the light, why would we need washing for something that can't happen?
Those requiring washing are those walking in darkness...sin.

The result of walking in the light as He is in the light, is we have fellowship with Him and with those who walk in the light with Him, AND the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
And being a conjuction, connects what was said with what is going to be said.

Can you face the fact that if our sins have bees washed away by the blood of Christ we CAN say we have no sin?
And that we have been equipt to do all that is necessary to remain in the light so we don't commit more sin that needs washing?
It is written..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
It is the faithless unbelievers that keep sinning.

 

[for_his_glory]

That did seem to be the POV you and JLB have takes.

Then get crucified with Christ and kill it.
It is written..."God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:2-7)
And..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Ga 5:24)

Quit striving for it and cease it...to the glory of God and of His Son Jesus Christ.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

All these scriptures are speaking about the Spiritual inner man. It is not the outer man (flesh) that is Spiritually born again, but the inner man. You need to learn the difference between the two. The outer man is carnal and the inner man is made Spiritually renewed again. It's all about the condition of our heart and attitude towards certain things that we learn to let go of, but is a continuous process everyday. This is why the flesh is a hostile enemy against the Spirit as there will always be a battle within us. This is why we are instructed to walk in the Spirit so we can overcome the things of the flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

All these scriptures are speaking about the Spiritual inner man. It is not the outer man (flesh) that is Spiritually born again, but the inner man. You need to learn the difference between the two. The outer man is carnal and the inner man is made Spiritually renewed again. It's all about the condition of our heart and attitude towards certain things that we learn to let go of, but is a continuous process everyday. This is why the flesh is a hostile enemy against the Spirit as there will always be a battle within us. This is why we are instructed to walk in the Spirit so we can overcome the things of the flesh.

We believe differently.

 

[JLB]

He is referring to those who walk in the dark...sin.
It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness: ..." (Pro 4:19)

Yes the way of wickedness is darkness.

I would think everyone would agree.


However, the verse we are discussing refers to walking in the light.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


Darkness, is not mentioned in this verse. The subject of this verse is walking in the light.


Those who walk in the light, with God, have these two promises.

if we walk in the light as He is in the light —

• we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You have been taught that it as a way to keep sinning.

No the scriptures don’t teach us walking in the light is the way to keep sinning.


The scripture teaches us that. — if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.


You keep making up things that are not mentioned in this verse, such as walking in darkness, and to keep sinning.


Why?





JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Why would anybody want to be "in the Lord" without a hope of perfect obedience to Him?
The stumbling block for those wishing to earnestly serve God is the falsehood that it isn't possible.

Do you know how many fall away from God thinking they will never be perfect because of their imperfections according to this false teaching of sinless perfection. Believe me there are many as I was one of them many years ago.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is you who has added "sinful" to the verse.

If you are speaking about 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 what do suppose corruptible means if it is not sin?

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry to read that.

It is you who has added "sinful" to the verse.

John the Baptist.
It is written..."For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)
God won't remain in a polluted temple, so unless John betrayed the Lord during his life he was pure from day one to his last day.

Why not reach a little higher and get reborn of God's own seed?
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

If we have faith in the below, we wont go astray.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
And..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Being born of Abraham will do you no good, as Esau and Judas Iscariot were both born of Abraham.
Get born of God and be made a new creature entirely !
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
By maintaining an "old" body, you announce to everyone that you are not a new creature.

Again, only showing the scriptures you want to help support Wesley's theory, but neglecting the ones where God's grace is sufficient in our weakness.