Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[Hopeful]

So you agree with the teaching of Jesus to His disciples? JLB

Yes I do agree, but am aware that the "brothers" He was talking about then in Matt 18 were Jewish brothers of nationality and not today's "church brethren".
His message can be adopted for today's potential of sin from supposed brethren, but sinners have different Fathers than those actually reborn of God's seed, so are not really "brothers".
We are supposed to forgive everybody who sins against us now, whether they are supposed brethren or just the guy on the street.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here is how Jesus taught us to deal with a brother who sins.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

Jesus taught us, if a brother should sin against us we should go to him in an effort to confront him about his sin, as well as turn him back to be restored.


There is no doubt that Jesus and the earth Church viewed sin much differently that we do today in our modern culture. If we expect to remain in Christ, we must take heed to the teachings of Jesus Christ, our Lord and King.

• But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

Having another brother, to try and bring repentance is the next step.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It’s undeniable that Jesus is teaching His disciples, who then will continue to teach their disciples so the Church, as it grows will be established in His doctrine.


Those who desire to willfully continue in unrepentant sin, are to be considered as sinners, separated from Christ, as tax collectors and heathen. These must repent and turn back to God is they expect to be restored to Christ.


As we see by the words of Christ, If he hears you, you have gained your brother, a brother who does repent continues to be a brother in Christ.


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22



If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-10











JLB

What kinds of sins are you talking about?
The ones that we can see or the ones thought of in private?

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't remember that point from my studies of Wesley's writings.
Where did you see/hear it from?

I haven't heard that either.
I do know that Wesley started out strongly preaching total obedience to God, but by the time of his death had watered it down to the world's level of obedience.
Such a shame.

Steve Amato - bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry.
I hadn't noticed the side-step you did by confronting a "watcher".
I thought it was our conversation.
Again, sorry.

I never side stepped anything. Only asking Truthfrees a question. It's everyone's conversation as no one owns the threads they make. This is why it is called discussions.

 

[JLB]

Yes I do agree, but am aware that the "brothers" He was talking about then in Matt 18 were Jewish brothers of nationality and not today's "church brethren".

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

You couldn’t be more wrong, and according to God’s word the reason you are wrong is you have deceived yourself.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Jesus Christ is teaching His disciples, His Church. The only members of the Church for the first 10 years were Jews.


He is not teaching the law of Moses.


“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16


The New Testament Doctrine of the Church is founded upon the teachings of Christ. That’s what Jesus Christ taught.


You are spreading false doctrine to God’s people.

I hope and pray you repent.


And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:12






JLB

 

[Hopeful]

I never side stepped anything. Only asking Truthfrees a question. It's everyone's conversation as no one owns the threads they make. This is why it is called discussions.

I guess I should have said "perceived side-step".
But no problem anyway.

 

[Hopeful]

Steve Amato - bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

Thanks...I'll check it out.

 

[Hopeful]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

You couldn’t be more wrong, and according to God’s word the reason you are wrong is you have deceived yourself.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

• But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Jesus Christ is teaching His disciples, His Church. The only members of the Church for the first 10 years were Jews.
He is not teaching the law of Moses.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16
The New Testament Doctrine of the Church is founded upon the teachings of Christ. That’s what Jesus Christ taught.
You are spreading false doctrine to God’s people.
I hope and pray you repent.
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:12
JLB

Do you believe 1 John 1:7?
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Doesn't "CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN" allow us to thereafter say we have no sin, and, that we have fellowship with God?
(Those walking in darkness can say neither.)

I believe it does, and I believe God has provided us all we need to remain in Him who is the light.

 

[JLB]

What kinds of sins are you talking about?
The ones that we can see or the ones thought of in private?

Any sin

 

[JLB]

Do you believe 1 John 1:7?
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Doesn't "CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN" allow us to thereafter say we have no sin, and, that we have fellowship with God?
(Those walking in darkness can say neither.)

I believe it does, and I believe God has provided us all we need to remain in Him who is the light.

Yes,

I believe 1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

The same group of people that walk in the light, and have fellowship with one another, is the same group that is cleansed of all sin, while they are walking in the light.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The Church of the Nazarene is an example of a denomination which pledges allegiance to such Weslyan theology, as do also Methodist churches and the like.

While those of a Wesleyan theology, such as Nazarene types, speak of Christian perfection, they believe that such a person does continue to commit acts of what they refer to as "faults, shortcomings, mistakes, deviations from a standard of perfect conduct." They refer to them as being "involuntary and innocent." But if they are not sin then why mention them at all? While they have been careful to avoid the term "ignorance" in this list, Wesley does incorporate in his. Yet with respect to attitude they propose that such a person will never have any attitude or response contrary to the spirit of Christ? Such a person never consciously sins in act, word or thought. "Consciously" is of course the loophole for Holiness types.

Or to quote Wesley himself from http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/

"Perhaps the general prejudice against Christian perfection may chiefly arise from a misapprehension of the nature of it. We willingly allow, and continually declare, there is no such perfection in this life, as implies either a dispensation from doing good, and attending all the ordinances of God, or a freedom from ignorance, mistake, temptation, and a thousand infirmities necessarily connected with flesh and blood."

"We Secondly believe, that there is no such perfection in this life, as implies an entire deliverance, either from ignorance, or mistake, in things not essential to salvation, or from manifold temptations, or from numberless infirmities, wherewith the corruptible body more or less presses down the soul. We cannot find any ground in Scripture to suppose, that any inhabitant of a house of clay is wholly exempt either from bodily infirmities, or from ignorance of many things; or to imagine any is incapable of mistake, or falling into divers temptations."

Seems the more ignorant a person is to his own sin, the more he can nonetheless be reckoned to have attained to a state of sinless perfection.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes,
I believe 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

The fellowship is with God.

The same group of people that walk in the light, and have fellowship with one another, is the same group that is cleansed of all sin, while they are walking in the light JLB

Can't they say they have no sin?
Of course they can.
Just as everybody who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
So the idea that no man can say they are without sin is dependent on wherein they walk.
It is only those walking in darkness, (which Pro 4:19 makes clear is sin), who cannot say they have no sin.
And it is only those walking in the light, (which 1 John 1:5 says is God), who can say they have no sin.
John is using an alternating verse technique to identify two different kinds of men.
Paul uses the same technique in Rom 7 to identify who is in the flesh and who is in the Spirit.
Opposing positions used to positively separate one position from the other.

 

[Hopeful]

The Church of the Nazarene is an example of a denomination which pledges allegiance to such Weslyan theology, as do also Methodist churches and the like.

While those of a Wesleyan theology, such as Nazarene types, speak of Christian perfection, they believe that such a person does continue to commit acts of what they refer to as "faults, shortcomings, mistakes, deviations from a standard of perfect conduct." They refer to them as being "involuntary and innocent." But if they are not sin then why mention them at all? While they have been careful to avoid the term "ignorance" in this list, Wesley does incorporate in his. Yet with respect to attitude they propose that such a person will never have any attitude or response contrary to the spirit of Christ? Such a person never consciously sins in act, word or thought. "Consciously" is of course the loophole for Holiness types.

Or to quote Wesley himself from http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/plain_account/

"Perhaps the general prejudice against Christian perfection may chiefly arise from a misapprehension of the nature of it. We willingly allow, and continually declare, there is no such perfection in this life, as implies either a dispensation from doing good, and attending all the ordinances of God, or a freedom from ignorance, mistake, temptation, and a thousand infirmities necessarily connected with flesh and blood."

"We Secondly believe, that there is no such perfection in this life, as implies an entire deliverance, either from ignorance, or mistake, in things not essential to salvation, or from manifold temptations, or from numberless infirmities, wherewith the corruptible body more or less presses down the soul. We cannot find any ground in Scripture to suppose, that any inhabitant of a house of clay is wholly exempt either from bodily infirmities, or from ignorance of many things; or to imagine any is incapable of mistake, or falling into divers temptations."

Seems the more ignorant a person is to his own sin, the more he can nonetheless be reckoned to have attained to a state of sinless perfection.

It is clear then that his "movement" ended up as corrupt as any other servants of sin's movements.
Initially, it was pure.
All that in the face of John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
I rejoice in the truth's ability to make me free and to keep me free of committing sin.
God is good !

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Any sin

I don't think so.
How can any of us know what sin another thinks.
The answer is that only those who act on it.
Therefore, how can our thoughts be sins if we don't act on them?

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think so.
How can any of us know what sin another thinks.
The answer is that only those who act on it.
Therefore, how can our thoughts be sins if we don't act on them?

They are temptations, and can be resisted.
Like James writes..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Do you believe 1 John 1:7?
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Doesn't "CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN" allow us to thereafter say we have no sin, and, that we have fellowship with God?
(Those walking in darkness can say neither.)

I believe it does, and I believe God has provided us all we need to remain in Him who is the light.

If that were true, then why would we still need Jesus?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

They are temptations, and can be resisted.
Like James writes..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

Yes, but who are you talking to?
If I'm thinking about the girl across the street, how would you know?
How can you correct me?
You can't.
You can only make general quotes like from James 4:7;.
You can't point them at anyone if they are only thoughts.
So you can't correct it.

My point was that Matthew 18:12-17 does not address our thought life.
Talking about sinless perfection in Christ goes beyond these verses.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is clear then that his "movement" ended up as corrupt as any other servants of sin's movements.
Initially, it was pure.
All that in the face of John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
I rejoice in the truth's ability to make me free and to keep me free of committing sin.
God is good !

In many parts his ministry was as much corrupt in his own mind thinking theology as parts were in truth and this can not be for an effective ministry that needs to be taught in all truths according to the doctrines of Christ. One can not serve to masters. Wesley resolved himself (not called of God) to be an ordained priest in 1728 after he graduated from Oxford University in 1724. He taught sinless perfection from 1725-1777 up to the time of his death. But yet in his deceptional teachings of sinless perfection, it is a movement and theology that you follow, even after many of us have shown you it can not be achieved in our lifetime. None who are in Christ will willingly sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't think so.
How can any of us know what sin another thinks.
The answer is that only those who act on it.
Therefore, how can our thoughts be sins if we don't act on them?

Because God knows our thoughts. Psalms 139:4, 23-24; Isaiah 66:18; Matthew 9:4 to name a few.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Because God knows our thoughts. Psalms 139:4, 23-24; Isaiah 66:18; Matthew 9:4 to name a few.

I was addressing post #14.
Your answers here do not apply.