Bible Study Sinless Perfection in Christ

[JLB]

I don't think so.
How can any of us know what sin another thinks.

The scripture doesn’t mention anything about sinful thinking.

The devil can project evil thoughts into our mind, but we can reject them.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The fellowship is with God.

Yes we have fellowship with God, however as you can see from Matthew 18:15-17, sin disconnects from fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Can't they say they have no sin?
Of course they can.
Just as everybody who has just been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
So the idea that no man can say they are without sin is dependent on wherein they walk.
It is only those walking in darkness, (which Pro 4:19 makes clear is sin), who cannot say they have no sin.
And it is only those walking in the light, (which 1 John 1:5 says is God), who can say they have no sin.
John is using an alternating verse technique to identify two different kinds of men.
Paul uses the same technique in Rom 7 to identify who is in the flesh and who is in the Spirit.
Opposing positions used to positively separate one position from the other.

Here is the scripture again.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

• If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

It says the same thing today as it did yesterday.


All your “explaining“ will not change what the passage so plainly says.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

If that were true, then why would we still need Jesus?

Why would you think that our obedience to God and His Son would curtail our dependence on Him?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but who are you talking to?
If I'm thinking about the girl across the street, how would you know?
How can you correct me?
You can't.
You can only make general quotes like from James 4:7;.
You can't point them at anyone if they are only thoughts.
So you can't correct it.

My point was that Matthew 18:12-17 does not address our thought life.
Talking about sinless perfection in Christ goes beyond these verses.

You've lost me.

 

[Hopeful]

In many parts his ministry was as much corrupt in his own mind thinking theology as parts were in truth and this can not be for an effective ministry that needs to be taught in all truths according to the doctrines of Christ.

You are correct.
He started out valiantly showing the way of truth, but unknown (to me) entities caused his capitulation. to darkness later in his ministry.

One can not serve two masters. Wesley resolved himself (not called of God) to be an ordained priest in 1728 after he graduated from Oxford University in 1724. He taught sinless perfection from 1725-1777 up to the time of his death.

He taught something other than sinless perfection later in his life.

But yet in his deceptional teachings of sinless perfection, it is a movement and theology that you follow, even after many of us have shown you it can not be achieved in our lifetime.

I was living the doctrine which is according to Godliness long before I heard of Wesley.

None who are in Christ will willingly sin.

Which shows that sinners are not in Christ...according to you.
I agree, but God is long-suffering, not willing that any should be destroyed.
He will keep sending out His chosen to gift the world with the message of freedom from sin till the very end.
God be praised for bearing long with myself.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is the scripture again.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

• If we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

It says the same thing today as it did yesterday.
All your “explaining“ will not change what the passage so plainly says.
JLB

I agree completely with the scripture addressing those in the light.
I also agree with the other side of the coin's scriptures which apply to those who walk in darkness.
But I don't mistake scriptures pertaining to those in darkness as if they also pertained to those in the light.

 

[JLB]

I agree completely with the scripture addressing those in the light.
I also agree with the other side of the coin's scriptures which apply to those who walk in darkness.
But I don't mistake scriptures pertaining to those in darkness as if they also pertained to those in the light.

As we see here in this passage, their isn’t any mention of those who walk in darkness.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


Please point out where John mentions darkness in this verse.


This scripture plainly says if we walk in the light as He is is the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.


If you have a “special” Bible that does mention darkness, or walking in darkness in 1 John 1:7, then please share that version with us.


I am quoting from the NKJV.


What version do you use?


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


The key is to confess your sin and repent.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4

• rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

It looks like you have been following “another Jesus”, who has taught you “another gospel”.



Your gospel seems to say… if your brother sins against you, he was never your brother in Christ to begin with; never born again.






JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why would you think that our obedience to God and His Son would curtail our dependence on Him?

You've lost me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Which shows that sinners are not in Christ...according to you.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring us back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating us as sons/daughters. For what son or daughter is there whom their father will not discipline. If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not son's or daughter's.

As a true child of God we no longer choose a lifestyle to sin, or in other words we no longer willfully sin, Hebrews 10:26-27, as the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. But yet, and this is no excuse to sin, we still live in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells and will cause us to fall short at times as flesh and spirit will always battle against each other and in moments of weakness, like that of Paul even after his conversion, we will fall at times, Romans 7:21-23.

Romans 12:2 instructs us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind and renewal can take some time, but it is a lifelong process that produces a change of behavior.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they continue to willfully sin? No. Scripture indicates that while we will always fall short of the glory of the Lord, Romans 3:23, we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to make us more like Him as we are changed into His glorious image, 2Corinthians 3:18.

 

[Hopeful]

As we see here in this passage, their isn’t any mention of those who walk in darkness.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

I know, furthering my assertion that parts of 1 John 1 don't apply to those in either darkness (or the light) depending on which of the A-B's is quoted.

Please point out where John mentions darkness in this verse.

He didn't.

This scripture plainly says if we walk in the light as He is is the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Yup.
Two separate thoughts, both containing the truth.
1. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, "
2. "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.'

JLB:
If you have a “special” Bible that does mention darkness, or walking in darkness in 1 John 1:7, then please share that version with us.
I use the KJV,

I am quoting from the NKJV.
What version do you use?

The KJV of the bible.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

A perfect example of the "B" object in an A-B format,: the "B" being those in darkness.
"A" refers to those in God, the light

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Thank God for allowing us to confess our past sins and be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness by the blood of Christ so we can walk in the light henceforth.

The key is to confess your sin and repent.

As long as that repentance from sin is true, it is worth its weight in gold.
If not a true repentance from sin, it is worthless for anything

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4

• rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

It looks like you have been following “another Jesus”, who has taught you “another gospel”.
Your gospel seems to say… if your brother sins against you, he was never your brother in Christ to begin with; never born again.

I can't agree with that.
You are stating as fact that sinners are born of God.
Were my "brother" in nation, at work, or of my own parents to sin against me, I would forgive them even if they didn't repent.
But those that commit sin are not my "brothers" in the Lord.

 

[Hopeful]

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring us back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating us as sons/daughters. For what son or daughter is there whom their father will not discipline. If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not son's or daughter's.

As a true child of God we no longer choose a lifestyle to sin, or in other words we no longer willfully sin, Hebrews 10:26-27, as the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. But yet, and this is no excuse to sin, we still live in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells and will cause us to fall short at times as flesh and spirit will always battle against each other and in moments of weakness, like that of Paul even after his conversion, we will fall at times, Romans 7:21-23.

Romans 12:2 instructs us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind and renewal can take some time, but it is a lifelong process that produces a change of behavior.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they continue to willfully sin? No. Scripture indicates that while we will always fall short of the glory of the Lord, Romans 3:23, we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to make us more like Him as we are changed into His glorious image, 2Corinthians 3:18.

True children of God don't go astray.

 

[for_his_glory]

True children of God don't go astray.

Then why does God discipline those who are His own according to scripture?

What would be the purpose of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 if we are already perfect?

Please show me just one perfect person in scripture, or even in the world today, as even the Prophets of God and Disciples of Christ fell short at times, and please do not say they sinned before they knew God.

 

[Hopeful]

Then why does God discipline those who are His own according to scripture?

There are different levels of discipline for different offenses.
Not all discipline is for sin.

What would be the purpose of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 if we are already perfect?

Those verses refer to the vessel we are in.
They grow old and deteriorate.

for_his_glory:
Please show me just one perfect person in scripture, or even in the world today,
Jesus Christ.

for_his_glory:
as even the Prophets of God and Disciples of Christ fell short at times, and please do not say they sinned before they knew God.
They sinned, not having been reborn of God's seed.
Those who walk with fleshly oriented minds can't walk in the Spirit full-time.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are different levels of discipline for different offenses.
Not all discipline is for sin.

Those verses refer to the vessel we are in.
They grow old and deteriorate.

for_his_glory:
Please show me just one perfect person in scripture, or even in the world today,
Jesus Christ.

for_his_glory:
as even the Prophets of God and Disciples of Christ fell short at times, and please do not say they sinned before they knew God.
They sinned, not having been reborn of God's seed.
Those who walk with fleshly oriented minds can't walk in the Spirit full-time.

Please show me the different levels of God's discipline. Is not discipline, as far as bad actions, for that of helping us to correct something that is wrong.

Are you equal to Christ who never knew no sin. I meant anyone other than Christ.

All the prophets and disciples, including all of us, were/are of faith being born the seed of Abraham as it is the Spiritual seed of God renewed within our spiritual inner man that is spirit, not flesh and blood.

 

[JLB]

Two separate thoughts, both containing the truth.
1. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, "
2. "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.'

Sorry, but the word "and" is a conjuction, and ties together in the same verse the thought the author is conveying.



This is further evidence that you have deceived yourself, trying to explain away the truth.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:7-8

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory said:
What would be the purpose of 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 if we are already perfect?

Hopeful replied: Those verses refer to the vessel we are in.
They grow old and deteriorate.

Yes they grow old and deteriorate while in the grave, but yet are sown in sin. What about those who are alive at His coming as they to will put on incorruption, and their mortal shall have put on immortality, as all are changed in a twinkling of an eye in order to be caught up to Jesus in the air.

 

[JLB]

Thank God for allowing us to confess our past sins and be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness by the blood of Christ so we can walk in the light henceforth.

Amen.

Agreed.

 

[Hopeful]

Please show me the different levels of God's discipline. Is not discipline, as far as bad actions, for that of helping us to correct something that is wrong.

Surely it is "for the correction of something that is wrong".
But the discipline for running with under pressurized tires will be different from the discipline ascribed to those who partake of the Lord's supper with sin on them.
The discipline for never brushing your teeth or showering will be different from the discipline one receives for stealing from work.

Are you equal to Christ who never knew no sin.

No, as I have known sin.
Since my repentance form sin, however, I am, as John says, "like Him".
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)
And..."Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

I meant anyone other than Christ.

Not sure what you meant, here.

All the prophets and disciples, including all of us, were/are of faith being born the seed of Abraham as it is the Spiritual seed of God renewed within our spiritual inner man that is spirit, not flesh and blood.

Would you kindly rephrase that?

 

[Hopeful]

Sorry, but the word "and" is a conjuction, and ties together in the same verse the thought the author is conveying.

If I wrote..."The day started slowly, and my car wouldn't start." ...I would indeed be tying the TWO thoughts together.
But they are two different thoughts nonetheless.

This is further evidence that you have deceived yourself, trying to explain away the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:7-8

I thank God that I have been given the grace to see that those two verses apply to two different groups.
One applies to those walking in the light, while the other applies to those walking in darkness.
They don't cross-over.