No its not far fetch, its truth,
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Conditional salvation is works salvation !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Butch5
Member
It's not. So many have told you this. You can't take terms from the Bible and redefine them to say what you want them to say. Show me a passage of Acripture that says anything one does is a work and therefore causes "works salvation".
Is making a decision a work ? 2
The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such, but affirm that they ascribe their salvation to their freewill decision for Christ. However this is a deception, its a cloak for boasting , its still teaching that salvation is conditioned on man, on his works, will, or decision, his mental effort at the least. He can even boast and say he is saved because of his wisdom or making a wise choice. The true believer however has God given Faith to realize that they have been saved by Grace alone, and what God only by Grace has done, that none of their salvation was conditioned on them. Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works or[my decision], lest any man should boast.
The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such, but affirm that they ascribe their salvation to their freewill decision for Christ. However this is a deception, its a cloak for boasting , its still teaching that salvation is conditioned on man, on his works, will, or decision, his mental effort at the least. He can even boast and say he is saved because of his wisdom or making a wise choice. The true believer however has God given Faith to realize that they have been saved by Grace alone, and what God only by Grace has done, that none of their salvation was conditioned on them. Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works or[my decision], lest any man should boast.
Yes it is.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Fair enough. You have me wondering though...aside from the issue of is it works based salvation or not...
Do you advocate doing good works toward your fellow man or neighbor?
"Prior to God saving us" - There is a mystery in salvation, the realisation of who God is in His heart, the understanding of love and its power, the acceptance of our guilt and need of forgiveness, the application of the cross on our lives, the walking in faith and truth after the Lord.
It is a road, a journey with many steps. Along this road there are blocks, things that might throw us off, make everything null and void.
We can get trapped in our lostness when light shone all around, feeling alone, when Christ has been there all along. C S Lewis created the image of us being ghosts who as we walk in faith become more real. Jesus talked of His word being planted in our souls and hearts and growing to create fruit to be harvested. When we use language of the instant, with a line drawn in path, we lose the reality of the path, with thousands of lines and situations that make up a whole tapestry.
It strikes me those who feel this is just a line, have not begun. Paul talked of sowing, of being perfected, of running for the prize of perfection, but he himself not yet attaining to it. In a sense self awareness of our standing may itself be sinful, because in the place of perfection it is the Lord who shines not us. We use pictures in our language, not seeing these probably show a distance still to travel rather than the place we should be. God bless you
Let us say we have got everything wrong. We are in reality these collections of factual emotional responses built up over our lives. Press this situation and out comes this response. Our minds are the machine that analyse and adjust inputs that tweak and often defend who and what we are.
The gospel is about giving control for the whole structure over to Jesus and changing how and what the structure actually is. The reins of this control are our minds, willing to open up and let things shift, be healed, reset, broken relationships remade, hurts removed, loving actions put in place, gentleness overflowing where anger used to reign.
Works are part of learning what our factual emotional response is and changing it to something that expresses Christs love for another. In a sense the work or action is just that, its value is the why and how from the heart that shows were we are, and were we would like to be. As soon as you start to see this is Gods intention, you begin to see works neither justify or condemn people, but are a reflection of Gods work in someones life or lack thereof.
This also shows the idea of a person being "saved" yet sinning with abandon is just absurd. This is just a delusion of language and to avoid anxiety of guilt and rejection. Repentance and grace resolves guilt and rejection, and shifting factual emotional responses changes behaviour. Yes the blocks of emotional makeup are real and seemingly immovable, but that is what the cross does when applied to the heart.
God bless you
different subject.
Dont see how this is related to my point.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Agreed, but can a Brother ask you one unrelated question and then I'll get back on topic?
There is a point here about the reality of what is salvation. If salvation is the gaining of an understanding of the gospel which is the point of turning from darkness into light which is eternally sealed, then to detract from this is seen as heresy or boasting if a choice was involved.
There is some irony here. If there is no choice in faith or election, this discussion is pointless, as the elect are destined to be elect and the lost lost. Evangelism or effort in following, or learning or teaching to bring insight or to encourage is equally pointless. For Jesus to invest time and energy into the disciples when they were going to be the apostles and walk the walk no matter what, again had no point.
But the nature of love and Gods argument with satan over Job is all about choice. Satans counter argument was Job was only righteous not because of love or the appreciation of God and His nature but because he had it nice, with wealth and good health. Jobs position was what was his reward or justice with God if he was true and still he got a bad deal. This whole discussion centres around choice, understanding of love and righteousness and choosing this way to walk.
Now a follower of Jesus, obviously cannot claim they have built the road or become justified because of anything they have done. The follower by following is declaring Jesus's love and justification and cleansing of them. In fact without following and acknowledging Christ would be to deny His work. So good works are the reaction to Christ not justification of the believer. As Paul would say, a believer without repentance is no believer at all.
But without realisation and walking Christs work is of no affect.
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Heb 5:8-9
Jesus is not the source of eternal life if we do not obey him.
The argument about preaching and sharing is people cannot come into the Kingdom without the Holy Spirit working on them, and people will not hear unless it is preached. And this is about choice and offering it to sinners, which obviously means man has the power to hear and respond or hear and reject as Jesus describes in the parable of the seed and the sower.
What is often missed is why repentance matters and what love is in the believers life and heart. It has meant a pretend version of faith has grown where gnostic beliefs arise and faith is just spiritual with no life affect. God bless you
Well put.
Robert Harbach wrote:
If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!
www.prca.org
If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!
Calvinism Unpopular But Right
This article first appeared in the December 1966 issue of the Standard Bearer, vol.43, Issue 5. The religious and doctrinal outlook of this now beyond middle age twentieth century is not that of Calvinism or that of the Reformed Faith. It is rather that of an inclusivistic or syncretistic and...www.prca.org
B,
Who cares what Robert Harbach wrote?
I could post CS Lewis, John Lennox, Dave Hunt, Michael Brown, William Lane Craig, R. Olson, and on and on.
I read thru your link.
It's an article by an assoc. of the reformed faith.
Which proved nothing.
This is all you have to do to discover if calvinism is right or wrong,,,it's popularity, or lack thereof, is of no consequence.
Read the bible. Decide on the character of God as portrayed in the books He inspired.
Is God portrayed as a loving God?
Is God portrayed as a merciful God?
Is He portrayed as a just God?
God gave these qualities to us also.
Why would He give us qualities He Himself does not adhere to?
Now, if the above sounds like God to you,,,then Calvinism is wrong.
If the above does Not represent God, if God is not Love, Merciful and Just, then calvinism is right.
You don't need anyone to explain anything to you...just decide what character the God you are serving has.
SOLA DEI GLORIA
???????
Is faith a gift or a work?
Now a DECISION is a work?
To what length does calvinism go to uphold incorrect doctrine?
Don't you see what a conundrum it creates?
You're very good at writing those long posts to no one in particular.
You should give the source, as is required.
But you're very bad at replying to questions.
No dear B,
Your point is not scriptural just because You say so.
Please answer questions and support your point.
I guess you can't.
So don't you believe what you preach?
If you do, answering questions should be super easy.
Agreed, but can a Brother ask you one unrelated question and then I'll get back on topic?
I'm glad I could do the works necessary for salvation.
And, they were not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against...for salvation.
Consecrated Life
Member
Having never mentioned it in this entire thread it is obvious that this burdensome & anxious labor you performed for your salvation never gave rise in your heart a need for the giving of thanks to Jesus?
And after all why would it?
It would be contrary to give thanks for receiving something you have labored and worked to receive.
But I was curious since so many others have done just that in spite of their own hard work, without ever seeing His face, when you do finally greet Jesus face to face do you think that maybe just that one time you may go through the motions and then mouth some words of thanks?
"
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. "