Edward
2024 Supporter
Agreed. Because becoming born again is a beginning. A seed of God within you. New spirit, Holy Spirit, God breathed and a seed of God will bring forth good fruit. It could not bring forth anything else.
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Conditional salvation is works salvation !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Agreed. Because becoming born again is a beginning. A seed of God within you. New spirit, Holy Spirit, God breathed and a seed of God will bring forth good fruit. It could not bring forth anything else.
Amen.
New, divine nature, and the mind of Christ too, thanks be to God.
I dislike discussing calvinism except with those that are reformed and understand that faith paradigm.
The other poster does not believe he can sin without accountability.
What he believes is that it is GOD that makes him sin, and somehow it's for God's glory.
He believes this because he believes that God CAUSES EVERYTHING to happen, even sin.
He also believes that we have no say in our salvation...because we have no free will to either say yes or no to God's invitation.
So God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned - and this from the beginning of everything, or from eternity past, would be another way of saying "from the beginning".
If brightfame52 believes I'm stating something incorrect, he could, of course, try to correct me. Try.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK brightfame.
The New Testament writers make it a point to state emphatically that faith is a gift from God.
Romans 3:24-26
24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
We are justified, saved, by God's grace GIVEN FREELY by the redemption that came by Christ.
Romans 4:4-5
4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
1. To the one who works, wages are given NOT AS A GIFT.
2. He that trusts God, is credited as righteous THROUGH THEIR FAITH.
3. God credits righteousness APART FROM WORKS.
Romans 4:16a
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace ...
Again back to Ephesians 2:8-9
We are saved BY GOD'S GRACE, through our faith, it is a GIFT FROM GOD...
NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that on one may boast.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9not by works, so that no one can boast.
You might be reading John McArthur's bible and commentary.
You should get a real bible, one that all Christians understand.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
We are all saved by God's grace. And not by our works.
Could you show with scripture why you believe faith is a work?
Doesn't God give faith to whom He chooses?
So how does that turn out to be a work in your opinion?
Isn't it a gift from God for the person He chose?
??
Who stated that “salvation is of myself” ?
I never said believing was the end of it. It’s the beginning of our new life in Christ.
Each of us must continue to remain in Christ if we expect to endure to the end.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB
Consecrated Life
Member
The example is given in the threads first post, where the author ( Brightframe) states that people are stating " in essence" that "salvation is of myself" without being astute enough to know what they are saying:
"Whenever we make anything a must do prior to God saving us, and God saves us because of that we must do ir have done, we automatically forfeit salvation by Grace and come under the opposing view of salvation by works.
If a person says that they were saved after they obeyed, or after they believed, this person is in essence saying, salvation is of myself, of my work, and whether they admit it or not, they have something to boast of. Yet Gods word insists that salvation is the Gift of God, not of man, its not of works lest any man boast Eph 2:8-9"
( Brightframe52 )
Blaming God for our sins...that is a new one for me.
( I do realize you are describing someone else's doctrine)
God set the parameters for salvation, but the actions we take are our responsibility.
I wonder why he didn't see that the works in question were the works of the Law.
Primarily, circumcision.
You have correctly understood brightfame52
Position.
Which, of course, is incorrect.
Since calvinists are totally monorgistic and believe God causes everything, they also must believe faith itself is a work.
The other poster apparently does not understand the Christian position that states that faith is a GIFT given to us at the point we respond Yes to God's call.
To him, the response itself is a work.
Their doctrine complicates a simple soteriological concept.
Of course. (Your last sentence).
Blaming God for our sins...that is a new one for me.
( I do realize you are describing someone else's doctrine)
God set the parameters for salvation, but the actions we take are our responsibility.
It goes beyond blaming God for our sins.
They state God CREATED evil and all sinful acts.
And that He predestinates all evil action by us, His creatures.
Then some of those theologians will also state that we, in some mysterious way, are still responsible for our actions!
It's a theological mess. This is why I've stated many times that it makes no sense and that God is not a God of confusion.
What do you yourself believe?
Edward
2024 Supporter
That's the thing, Sister. I understand what your saying from a doctrinal perspective, but I sort of didn't get the same exact vibe of that from him. So I thought I'd tickle the issue a bit and maybe he will say something defining. It's an interesting conversation for sure.
The problem is that he will not discuss his belief system in a serious manner.
It's difficult to understand why.
They spout their doctrinal heresy, and will not reply to those that understand them.
@butch is able to get replies,,,I admire him for that. I might be doing something wrong?
I feel like I'm just stating orthodox Christianity.
Or he replies with one-liners, like he does with you and others.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Consecrated Life
Member
I believe Brightframe's stated premise to be false and accusatory in tone, and that a newfound sense of dependence upon God's Almighty power and sustaining grace alone would serve him well in learning to trust where he so obviously cannot trace.
I will pray that he does.
" I am poor and needy, yet the Lord thinketh upon me. "
( Psalm 40:17 )
Amen.
Also a new nature, as we are new creatures.
Belief systems are grounded in emotional life history and often very personal.
The more you repeat the words the more it reinforces the feelings one has around it.
I remember this experience, not fully understanding the words or why their meaning meant so much to me, but I could quote scripture in answer to an issue. What I was not capable of was differentiating between subtle differences of emphasis.
If ones main motivation is security in Christ, because anxiousness and being abandoned is a primary driving force, which it is for many, holding to a doctrine I am secure no matter how failing I might be summarises it well. The challenge is realising this is the driving feeling and separating it from looking at Jesus's intent which is clearly to walk the straight path and learn the ways of God. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, cannot get much clearer or those that hear the words of mine and put them into action are like a man building their house upon a solid foundation.
But emotionally such activity makes one suggest there is something of value in us, something that God might build and perfect, but that would suppose we are taking a risk of success or failure, which is anxious and difficult. My father who was a very anxious man, and who could never define his faith openly, avoided even talking about such things. The apostles on the other hand were very much into reassurance through action. We know we are saved because we do the things God commanded. That is a kind of self revelation, rather than trying to be something one is not.
Paul talked about being content in much and content in little. So for him this self awareness was core to his own walk. But then if you listen to your conscience, want to hear other people and share their trials and successes it would be impossible without this empathy and connection.
An emotionally blind person is still bound in a prison not of their own making. Seeing Jesus and repenting, and feeling the results, is part of our freedom. God bless you