Jesus Is God: Part 1

[WalterandDebbie]

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Are not the Son & the Father sharing the same hand of salvation? Is not verse 30 above is Jesus declaring Himself to be God as well? The Jews understod Him plainly for why they tried to stone Him afterwards.

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

That is why the Father's will be done. but Jesus is still God the Son.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Believe what? What He said in the beginning that He is God.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

I have His wisdom to see the truth in that verse that He is asking us that believe in God to believe in Him as God too.

Jesus was on earth before His incarnation as seen by Abraham in Genesis 18:1 as Jesus said He had seen Him in that day in John 8:56-59 as scriptures testify of Him John 5:39-47 just as Moses had written about Him.

The message is clear in the scripture even though, not worded like that.

Son of God is God as Spirit of God is God.

To deny the Son as the Christ, as God is to deny the Father as God.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rock has always been a reference to deity in the Old Testament.

Christ As the Rock Is Christ As God

So God the Son is the message of truth in the scripture.

Christ said His Father is Greater and in another place, Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

Brother, I can understand that of those of the scriptures, but I see also, that you are not answering my question with an open mind.

 

[Golgotha]

Christ said His Father is Greater and in another place, Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

I believe I had addressed you referring "God is a Spirit" as inferring the Father is a Spirit and has no celestial body but I had said and provided scripture earlier that He did, which you did not believe.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.

Together, both of these scriptures testify that no man has seen the Father but Jesus did.

Jesus said that when we are in Heaven, we will not need to ask Him to ask the Father for us for we shall see the Father plainly and ask Him directly. This begin here;

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And the topic of us seeing the Father directly to ask Him concluded here.

John 16: 23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Brother, I can understand that of those of the scriptures, but I see also, that you are not answering my question with an open mind.

Well prayer is needed for both of us no matter what, in any iron sharpen iron ministry from the Lord as only He can give us wisdom to see the truth in His words

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I believe I had addressed you referring "God is a Spirit" as inferring the Father is a Spirit and has no celestial body but I had said and provided scripture earlier that He did, which you did not believe.

Brother, I do believe in those scriptures that you quoted, but it is evident that we both don't agree on the scripture as to Matthew 16:13-17 and John 1:1.

I also believe 1 John 5:6-13

 

[Golgotha]

Brother, I do believe in those scriptures that you quoted, but it is evident that we both don't agree on the scripture as to Matthew 16:13-17 and John 1:1.

I also believe 1 John 5:6-13

May God cause the increase and may He be willing to continue in this iron sharpen iron exchange of His ministry.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[Butch5]

Yet in Genesis 1:26 the request was made to make man in our mage and after our likeness but when the act of creation was performed, only God did it in Genesis 1:27 so no angels involved as man was created in His image and after His likeness.

Isiaah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

So Who was the Lord speaking to in making that request and yet only God did it?

Not like anyone can refuse Him but only God did it.

Same thing happened to the people at the tower of Babylon as the request was made to confuse their language and scatter them but only the Lord did it as it is written. Genesis 11:5-9

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So as God commands of men in having 2 or 3 witnesses to judge anyone or to establish a word or a testimony, so God is as the Triune God..

Firstly we're discussing witnesses not the creation of man. However, nothing here indicates a triune God. Paul said that Jesus was the first born of all creation. So, He was there with God at creation. He is the one who carried out God's commands. Paul said that all things were made through Christ. So, we would expect a plural we.

However, there is a literary device that is used in Scripture called the Royal or Majestic We. This is where a single individual is referred to in the plural. It is used to emphasize greatness. It's not only used of God but also of pagan gods and men.

Yes, note the plural in John 14:23, but the Holy Spirit too in John 14:26

After His ascension which was after His resurrection, at and since Pentecost, Jesus Christ indwells believers per 2 Corinthians 13:5

Explain John 14:23 then when Jesus said He and the Father will make their abode in us.

Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus is a man, so how does He dwell in unbelievers if not through the Spirit. But, even though three are mentioned it doesn't mean they are three different persons.

As I've pointed out, Paul said there is one God the Father. That's not three persons, it's one.

 

[Butch5]

Whether godhood or Godhead, you can derive this term from the truth in scripture.

Actually, we derive the term from old English. The old English definition is godhood. Paul is saying that the fulness of Godhood dwells in Jesus bodily.

Thus, Jesus is God

He may lead you to rethink that in the knowledge of Him.

Let us read exactly what Paul had written;

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

So Paul testified that Jesus had thought He is God as equal with God.

That's actually not a very good translation. Robbery, should read, a thing to be grasped or a booty. If you look at other translations you'll find it says He didn't fine equality with God a thing to be grasped. We can see that this is the correct translation because Jesus Himself said that Father was greater than He. Thus He did not consider Himself equal with God.

And read that Jesus Christ has been received at our salvation moment;

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

How can we receive Him as a human spirit in us unless He is God of the Triune God?

This passage doesn't say anything about a human spirit. There is no such thing as a human spirit. God is spirit, man is flesh. Jesus is man, flesh. He was raised and said,

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:36-39 KJV)

Jesus had flesh and bone, He said a spirit doesn't, thus Jesus was not a spirit. I would submit that when Paul talks of them receiving Christ, he means they accepted the Gospel

 

[Golgotha]

Firstly we're discussing witnesses not the creation of man. However, nothing here indicates a triune God. Paul said that Jesus was the first born of all creation.

Just for clarity's sake, are you applying first born as happening at His incarnation?

So, He was there with God at creation. He is the one who carried out God's commands. Paul said that all things were made through Christ. So, we would expect a plural we.

Yet when the request to make man in our mage and after our likeness was made, whose other image is there besides the Son's in Genesis 1:26? Since the angels did not help because God did it Himself in Genesis 1:27, how do you explain this? Not like for anyone to defy or not do what God commands, but yet only God did it?

That is why I believe the Godhead is made up of Three Witnesses for that One God to establish a word in creation by the Word of God.

However, there is a literary device that is used in Scripture called the Royal or Majestic We. This is where a single individual is referred to in the plural. It is used to emphasize greatness. It's not only used of God but also of pagan gods and men.

Jesus is a man, so how does He dwell in unbelievers if not through the Spirit. But, even though three are mentioned it doesn't mean they are three different persons.

Matthew 28:20 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & Colossians 2:5-10 has Jesus Chris received and dwelling in us always. Think His disciples are dwelling within us after they had passed on? I don't. So why would Jesus unless He is more than just a man but God also.

As I've pointed out, Paul said there is one God the Father. That's not three persons, it's one.

Yet Paul also said Jesus is God too. So go figure.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That is the God that will be appearing.

Titus 2:3 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[Golgotha]

Actually, we derive the term from old English. The old English definition is godhood. Paul is saying that the fulness of Godhood dwells in Jesus bodily.

That's actually not a very good translation. Robbery, should read, a thing to be grasped or a booty. If you look at other translations you'll find it says He didn't fine equality with God a thing to be grasped. We can see that this is the correct translation because Jesus Himself said that Father was greater than He. Thus He did not consider Himself equal with God.

I prefer the KJV for the actual message and thus the truth in His words.

So what Bible version are you using and what does it say here?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

How is that not Jesus being equal with God here sharing the same hand of salvation?

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood what He was saying for why they tried to stone Him, and Jesus said this.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

And they tried to stone Him again.

This passage doesn't say anything about a human spirit. There is no such thing as a human spirit. God is spirit, man is flesh. Jesus is man, flesh. He was raised and said,

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:36-39 KJV)

Jesus had flesh and bone, He said a spirit doesn't, thus Jesus was not a spirit. I would submit that when Paul talks of them receiving Christ, he means they accepted the Gospel

Scripture says we have the Spirit of Christ in us. Paul said that.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now as far as human spirits goes, in 1 Samuel 28:5-20, King Saul had fallen out of favor with the Lord and he wanted counsel but got none from Him and so he went to a medium to call up the spirit of the prophet Samuel and that had happened. So there are spirits of human beings as Jesus confirmed them in referring to Abraham's bosom aka Paradise when it used to be located beneath the earth but across the great gulf from hell. Luke 16:19-31 Now after His resurrection and His ascension, Paradise and all her inhabitants has been taken to Heaven as Paul testified "indirectly" of the apostle John and that Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Do click on those scripture references to read why I had applied my comments to them.

 

[Butch5]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I read what Jesus has said about the Father sending Another Person in doing a job. That separates the Holy Spirt as sent by the Father as not the Father and yet not the Son, Jesus, to be reminding us of whatever Jesus has said unto us..

Actually, that statement was made to the Apostles. It's pretty clear that not all Christians are being led into all truth.

However, I would submit that you see a third person because you've been conditioned to see a third person. The translators who believe in a third person have let this bias into their translations. Can you show anything in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit is a third person?

You haven't given the full context of these passages. After speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said this.

 

[Butch5]

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I read what Jesus has said about the Father sending Another Person in doing a job. That separates the Holy Spirt as sent by the Father as not the Father and yet not the Son, Jesus, to be reminding us of whatever Jesus has said unto us..

Again, you're inferring a third person. Nothing here indicates a third person. As I've pointed out, the angel of God called the Holy Spirit, the power of God. The Father would send the power of God to the apostles. That's exactly what we see at Pentecost. Jesus had told them to remain in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. At Pentecost the received the Holy Spirit, the power from on high

 

[Butch5]

Yet scripture does testify to Three Witnesses in Heaven as They agree as One for how the Triune God exists, judges, and testifies so that His word is true.

You keep arguing for a triune God when Paul said, "to us there is one God, the Father". Is Paul wrong?

 

[Butch5]

Just for clarity's sake, are you applying first born as happening at His incarnation?

No. He is the first born of all creation. As the early Christians testify, He was begotten before all worlds.

Nicene Creed A.D. 381​

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light from light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father;

Yet when the request to make man in our mage and after our likeness was made, whose other image is there besides the Son's in Genesis 1:26? Since the angels did not help because God did it Himself in Genesis 1:27, how do you explain this? Not like for anyone to defy or not do what God commands, but yet only God did it?

That is why I believe the Godhead is made up of Three Witnesses for that One God to establish a word in creation by the Word of God.

There was the Father and Son, this is plural. The Father gave the command and the Son executed the command. They angels had nothing to do with creating, however, they were witnesses.

Matthew 28:20 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & Colossians 2:5-10 has Jesus Chris received and dwelling in us always. Think His disciples are dwelling within us after they had passed on? I don't. So why would Jesus unless He is more than just a man but God also.

He is Deity. However, a man cannot dwell in people, thus the Holy Spirit. That's God was in Jesus, it was through the Spirit. That's how God is in believers.

Yet Paul also said Jesus is God too. So go figure.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Why do you think Paul is referring to Jesus here? Notice Paul said, "King Eternal". Paul also told Timothy that the Father alone has immortality. So, Paul could only have been referring to the Father.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:13-16 NKJ)

Notice Paul said that God gives life to "all" things. This includes Jesus. The Father is the source of all life. He goes on to speak of blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lord "who alone has immortality" whom no man has seen nor can see. From this we see that the only one who has immortality is the one that no man has ever seen nor can see. That obviously isn't Jesus as many have seen Jesus. That leaves the Father. So, Paul can't be speaking of Jesus in 1 Tim 1:16

That is the God that will be appearing.

Titus 2:3 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The appearing both, our great God, and our Saviour Jesus.

 

[Golgotha]

Actually, that statement was made to the Apostles. It's pretty clear that not all Christians are being led into all truth.

However, I would submit that you see a third person because you've been conditioned to see a third person. The translators who believe in a third person have let this bias into their translations. Can you show anything in Scripture that says the Holy Spirit is a third person?

You haven't given the full context of these passages. After speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said this.

Tell me how you are conditioned in reading these verses?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Reads to me Jesus is talking about different Person that the Father will send at our salvation moment for He shall dwell in us forever by how we will know Him from the spirits in the world in how the world knows them by seeing them when receiving.

Plus Jesus said that this Person will teach us all things and bring things into remembrance of all Jesus said unto us as everything He said in that chapter all the way up to chapter 16 is for the believers.

So how you read those passages as if not Another Person is doing those things?

 

[Golgotha]

Again, you're inferring a third person. Nothing here indicates a third person. As I've pointed out, the angel of God called the Holy Spirit, the power of God. The Father would send the power of God to the apostles. That's exactly what we see at Pentecost. Jesus had told them to remain in Jerusalem until they received power from on high. At Pentecost the received the Holy Spirit, the power from on high

You should consider if you are inferring your beliefs into those verses.

Romans 15:13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

I read this verse into those verse but I see a Third Person in the One God still.

 

[Golgotha]

You keep arguing for a triune God when Paul said, "to us there is one God, the Father". Is Paul wrong?

It depends on if you just ignore the rest of Paul's sayings. It would be like saying Jesus only died and leave out the verses about His resurrection, and all that He did before His ascension just to say Jesus died, 'so there" attitude, as if that settles it when other scriptures says there is more to that truth.

 

[Golgotha]

No. He is the first born of all creation. As the early Christians testify, He was begotten before all worlds.

Nicene Creed A.D. 381​

We believe in one God, the father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, light from light, Very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father;

So this is how you are reading your belief into those verses. Better prove that by the scripture, brother, because I have seen some of those scripture reference for each line of the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. on how they do not always prove every line.

For your reference, the scripture says otherwise.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now what Bible version do you use for how you read those verses because I see not the Father but the Word of God aka Jesus as the Creator of all things per the Father's permission when you go to Genesis 1:26-27 for the request made for the creation of man.

There was the Father and Son, this is plural. The Father gave the command and the Son executed the command. They angels had nothing to do with creating, however, they were witnesses.

I see it as the Word of God made the request for which the father agrees for why the Son did it with the Father and the Spirit in agreement.

He is Deity. However, a man cannot dwell in people, thus the Holy Spirit. That's God was in Jesus, it was through the Spirit. That's how God is in believers.

I'd say He was the Son of God that was seen in the O.T. before He gave it up to be the incarnated as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many.

Why do you think Paul is referring to Jesus here? Notice Paul said, "King Eternal". Paul also told Timothy that the Father alone has immortality. So, Paul could only have been referring to the Father.

Because Jesus is the King of kings prophesied to be coming at the end of the great tribulation to rule on earth for a thousand years. He is the God that is appearing.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:13-16 NKJ)

Notice Paul said that God gives life to "all" things. This includes Jesus. The Father is the source of all life. He goes on to speak of blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lord "who alone has immortality" whom no man has seen nor can see. From this we see that the only one who has immortality is the one that no man has ever seen nor can see. That obviously isn't Jesus as many have seen Jesus. That leaves the Father. So, Paul can't be speaking of Jesus in 1 Tim 1:16

Yet Jesus said this about scripture in Who they are to testify of in coming to for life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The appearing both, our great God, and our Saviour Jesus.

If God is the Saviour & Jesus is the Saviour, then how is it you do not see Jesus as God?

 

[Golgotha]

There was the Father and Son, this is plural. The Father gave the command and the Son executed the command. They angels had nothing to do with creating, however, they were witnesses.

He is Deity. However, a man cannot dwell in people, thus the Holy Spirit. That's God was in Jesus, it was through the Spirit. That's how God is in believers.

Is there historical evidence for the darkness & earthquake at the crucifixion?

The annual Passover is to be held 15 days from the new moon which makes it a full moon when Christ had died. And yet 3 hours of unexplained darkness was recorded at the time when Jesus had experienced the separation from the Father when Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself & so it cannot be an eclipse. Eclipse lasts minutes, not 3 hours.

The Light of the world took our sins and the unexplained darkness had come. Secular reports of only the stars could be seen as a mercy for those at sea that depend on them for directions, but the sun went out & thus the moon went out too for 3 hours.

Why would nature "reflect" what Christ has done on the cross unless He was and is Our Creator Whom was taking our sins upon Himself for why He had experienced that momentary separation from the Father?

Can He be God Our Redeemer because He is God the Creator? I believe so.

 

[Golgotha]

Butch5

If you ever considered why Jesus was crucified, it was for the false charge of blasphemy.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Let us consider the full scope of what Jesus has said for why He was charged with blasphemy.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Yet can Him being on the right hand of power means He is One with God as in God? We find Jesus being the first and the last below, as that ties in above.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:.... 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

So The Lord said in Isaiah that HE will do it and that He will not share His glory with another; that I am he, I am the first, I also am the last again as that ties in with Revelation 1:17-18 signifying the Lord Jesus Christ as that God in Isaiah.

God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour as scripture testifies Jesus is God.

So the charge of blasphemy is false for He had to be sinless to die on the cross in giving Himself as a ransom for many by taking on the sins of the world. Only God Our Creator can do this as God Our Redeemer. Something to ask Jesus about.

Which is another thing; we pray to God the Father but we also pray to Jesus at that throne of grace. That position makes Him God as well for us to be praying to Him.

We are not to pray to any other departed saints because no one else is at that throne of grace because they are not God. Hebrews 4:12-16 Reads to me Jesus is being God.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Are not the Son & the Father sharing the same hand of salvation? Is not verse 30 above is Jesus declaring Himself to be God as well? The Jews understod Him plainly for why they tried to stone Him afterwards.

John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

That is why the Father's will be done. but Jesus is still God the Son.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Believe what? What He said in the beginning that He is God.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

I have His wisdom to see the truth in that verse that He is asking us that believe in God to believe in Him as God too.

Jesus was on earth before His incarnation as seen by Abraham in Genesis 18:1 as Jesus said He had seen Him in that day in John 8:56-59 as scriptures testify of Him John 5:39-47 just as Moses had written about Him.

Brother, not as the above, as to what I'm talking about:

WalterandDebbie said:
Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is the Spirit that I know Christ is talking about His Father in:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit

Love, Walter

 

[Golgotha]

Brother, not as the above, as to what I'm talking about:

Sorry about that but thanks for attempting at a clarification below in how you believe.

WalterandDebbie said:
Christ said His Father is Spirit, I'm sure while He was on earth He is The Son, as Peter has said also, so then! tell me how can He be God at the same time as His Father?

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the
face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is the Spirit that I know Christ is talking about His Father in:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit

Love, Walter

Well, I understand at least why you believe that between those 2 references but there are other scripture to the contrary for why you should pause in applying those 2 references to mean that.

John 4:24 is Jesus informing the woman at the well that times are changing now that no one has to go to the mountains nor to Jerusalem to worship God any more with Jesus there. God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence so that believers can worship Him anywhere now. That is the meaning in context of that reference of God is a Spirit.

As for applying Genesis 1:2 to that, to "prove" that the Father has no celestial body, is to do so without aligning with other scriptures that testifies otherwise. Genesis 1:26-27 & John 14:23-26 & John 16:23-28 KJV for when we are in Heaven to ask the Father directly in seeing Him as we would not need Jesus any more to ask for us.

As it is even though no man has seen the Father, but Jesus said He did in Heaven.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So when taking other scriptures in consideration, Genesis 1:2 cannot apply to John 4:24 since the Father can be seen and we will see Him when we get to Heaven

Thanks for sharing and having the patience to share your beliefs with me.