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Jesus Is God: Part 1

Butch5

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So how would that look if we said that? Would that make us look like a christ?

Since God in us, we could say the "words of the Father" and be as the Christ is, but that would be false, right? It certainly would be hard to apply the "words of the Father" here for us to take heed of.

Matthew 24: 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Since there is only One Christ and His saying the words of the Father in how the Father's words are His words now for how & why everything the Holy Spirit says thru us and do through us, the Holy Spirit defers the credit & glory to Jesus Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And how all power has been given unto Him in Heaven to hear our prayers & answers them as God only can.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I doubt any of the departed saints are answering prayers as only God can do.


I believe you need to consider the full ramification of your comment in application because then we are saying the words of the Father too & yet we are not the Christ Whom is God & after we die, we are certainly not God to be answering any prayers.
Jesus was speaking for the Father. We don't speak for the Father. John said,

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

John said no man has seen God at any time. Did any men see Jesus? This is what I'm talking about when I say this fifth century doctrine contradicts Scripture. If no man has ever seen God, but men have seen Jesus, how is Jesus God?

John says that the Son has declared God to men. He spoke, often in the first person, for the Father. He said the words He spoke were not His.

In Genesis 18 we find Abraham standing before the Lord. He could see and was speaking to Him. That was the Son, no man has seen God at any time. Abraham Saw the Son. Jesus even said so.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (Jn. 8:54-56 KJV)

So, If Abraham saw the Jesus, and no man has seen God at any time, how is Jesus God?
 

Golgotha

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Sorry, I'm not following where you're going with this. Again, you say Jesus is God, what is He?
Your question is unclear since I am saying Jesus is God and so why ask?

Maybe soon He will help you at least understand my belief even if you do not agree with me. You can always try to pick out a paragraph that you do understand with His help and go from there. I do not mind.
 

Golgotha

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Jesus was speaking for the Father. We don't speak for the Father. John said,

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

John said no man has seen God at any time. Did any men see Jesus? This is what I'm talking about when I say this fifth century doctrine contradicts Scripture. If no man has ever seen God, but men have seen Jesus, how is Jesus God?

John says that the Son has declared God to men. He spoke, often in the first person, for the Father. He said the words He spoke were not His.

In Genesis 18 we find Abraham standing before the Lord. He could see and was speaking to Him. That was the Son, no man has seen God at any time. Abraham Saw the Son. Jesus even said so.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (Jn. 8:54-56 KJV)

So, If Abraham saw the Jesus, and no man has seen God at any time, how is Jesus God?
The truth is that man has seen God in the O.T. and it was not the Father but the Son as God.
 

for_his_glory

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So how would that look if we said that? Would that make us look like a christ?
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus, being the very word of God come in the flesh of man, John 1:14, only spoke what God gave Him to speak. Jesus is the very Spirit of God made a light unto the world come in the flesh to teach us all things. Same with the Holy Spirit that is the very Spirit of God who teaches us all truths now through Spiritual eyes and ears to hear the words of God.
 

for_his_glory

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (God/Jesus being one Spirit)

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. (God/Jesus being one Spirit)

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (God/Jesus being one Spirit)

Now we see the Word, being God, who transforms His Spirit, being made flesh in whom the name Messiah was given Him and dwelt among His people preaching the Gospel of His grace, Ephesians 2:8. (God/Jesus being one Spirit)

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (God/Jesus/Holy Spirit being one Spirit)

The word water in John 3:5 means living water as in the living word of God, John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: (literal water) but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire (God/Jesus/Holy Spirit being one Spirit in all authority and power)

All three being the Spirit of God, but manifested to us in three different ways for us to understand who God is in all His power and authority and His plan of salvation for a fallen sin filled world.

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (God = Jesus = Holy Spirit = who is dwelling in us)that will never leave us or forsake us)


1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (God's Spirit)
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (God's Spirit)
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (God's Spirit)

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Genesis 1:26
Isaiah 9:6; 44:24
Matthew 1:23
John 1:1-3; 1:14; 1:18; 8:58; 10:30-33; 14:9-11
Acts 20:28
Romans 9:5
Colossians 1:15-19; 2:9
Hebrews 1:1-3
2 Peter 2:1
1 John 5:20
 

Golgotha

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John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Jesus, being the very word of God come in the flesh of man, John 1:14, only spoke what God gave Him to speak. Jesus is the very Spirit of God made a light unto the world come in the flesh to teach us all things. Same with the Holy Spirit that is the very Spirit of God who teaches us all truths now through Spiritual eyes and ears to hear the words of God.
My contention with Butch5 in the course of our discussion, is that he is saying Jesus is being God by Him saying the words of the Father.

When he was on earth with His disciples, He gave them power/the Holy Spirit temporarily in Matthew 10:1-20 where Judas Iscariot was among them, but note what Jesus said about how they will speak in verses 19-20.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Does that make them God or the Christ too? If Jesus is deity because He speaks the words of the Father, wat does that mean for His disciples when one was not a believer but a traitor?


Now that Jesus is in Heaven, and the words of the Father are now His as He speaks them though the Holy Spirit in us per John 16:13-15.

So we are speaking the words of the Father, right? "What does that make us?" is my question to Butch5

That is why I was going on about the Christ as God and why none of His disciples nor us are the Christ or God. Indeed, after we die, & in Heaven, there are no promises from the Father that the living can pray to us to get an answer to prayers.

Only Jesus does that per John 14:13-14 and only God answers prayers.

Thus Jesus is God, which he believes, but not the same way I do, for he contends on 'how' He is God for having the Spirit of the Father in Him for how & why He is saying the words of the Father whereas I contend that He is God of the Triune God, regardless of saying the words of the Father, because we're not God for saying them.

But it is possible that I am not understanding his position, needing clarification, as he is having trouble understanding mine in needing clarification from me because of my long post. Even though we are in disagreement with each other, yet we believe Jesus is God. Only God can minister that iron sharpen iron between us. I hope He does.
 

Butch5

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Examples should be given, even if it is just one.

I can give an example like Matthew 5:29-30 & Matthew 10:28 & Matthew 18:9 where the Greek word "geena" or Gehenna has been translated to mean hell in English but Jesus is referring to a place of slaughter on earth for why He is warning believers to repent of with His help or else; Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-30 Even Strong's Concordance for Matthew 18:8 used that Greek word for everlasting fire in English to mislead the reader in reading hell as referring to the after life when it is not. 2 Peter 3:3-18 testify of a coming fiery judgment on earth after the rapture that believers are to endured to the end to escape from or else as Jesus confirms in Luke 21:33-36.

Anyway, not sure if false teachings of believers can go to hell or lose their salvation is what caused that to be translated into English like that, but I do see your point.

Even Revelations 3:5 where the double negative in the Greek is not really translated into English to convey the message that Jesus would never blot out any one's name out of the Book of Life but they can lose their "inheritance" or their "part" in that City of God by not being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection; Revelation 22:19
None of the translations are perfect. Think about this. Is a translator going to translate the bible in a way he thinks is wrong? Probably not. Therefore, what he believes influences how he translates. Consider that getting on a translation board if you're not a Trinitarian isn't likely to happen. What does that mean for all of the translations? They're all going to have a Trinitarian bent. If they all tend towards Trinitarianism what are the readers going to tend towards? Unless someone is willing to challenge the status quo everyone winds up being Trinitarian. I used to be one. I used many of the same arguments you're using. However, when I changed my presuppositions I began to see things differently. If one comes to the text believing in a third person of the Trinity they will see a third person. The problem is they have to ignore a lot of other Scripture. In order to prove a Triune God one must take the passages that go against their beliefs and show how they can be understood differently, if that is possible. Here's an example of translator bias,

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

Whole concepts have been developed over this verse. There is nothing in the Bible that says there is a place in Hades called Paradise. That idea comes from this passage. It is argued that since Jesus and the thief would be in paradise that day, and the dead go to Hades, there must be a place in Hades called Paradise. That is an inference, again, nothing in Scripture says there is a place in Hades called Paradise. Many, if not most, Christians believe that all people have eternal life and that they will spend it either in Heaven or Hell. Since they believe that the wicked must be alive somewhere after death, they determine that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an example of this. Most translators believe that Christians go to Heaven when they die. That's the Bias. Now, look at the passage if we simply move the comma from the beginning of the word today, to after it.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Suddenly the verse takes on a whole new meaning. It simple says at some point in time in the future the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise. It could be later that day or 100 years in the future. The passage doesn't indicate when if we simply move the comma. Since there is no punctuation in the Greek text the placement of the comma is simple at the translators discretion. What he believes about the afterlife determines where he puts the comma. When we move the comma to the end of the word today we are no longer forced to place in Hades a place called Paradise. Which is good because Jesus said that Paradise (Garden) was the garden of God. We know what the Garden of God is, it's Eden. So, Jesus was actually addressing the thief's request that he enter the Kingdom, He wasn't telling the thief where he'd be later that afternoon. Jesus was telling the Thief that he'd be in the Kingdom.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

Jesus was telling the thief that he would have eternal life. So many Christians miss this because the comma is in the wrong place in this verse.
In God's eye they are one flesh. This is something God has accomplished by marrying them; not something they were to accomplish. By not being unified as you put it, when one commits adultery, that sin is known by denying what God has done.

Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

So what happens when one decide to get a divorce by agreeing to no longer be united?

Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Words of the Father. There is no goal but a recognition & respect of what God has done and now with Christ in us, they have His help to be united in Him for a fruitful marriage even though they are one flesh in marriage regardless.
My point was that they weren't one being. God didn't make them one being after they were joined. They were unified.
The son of a human is a human, and so a Son of God is God. That is why the question "are thou the Christ, the Son of the living God?' and His answer to the affirmative is why it is blasphemous to the Jews to have Him crucified.
In the sense that the son of royalty is royalty, yes. However, that's not what most mean when they say Jesus is God. Most give Him all of the attributes of the Father who is ultimately God. This is why they can't explain how three persons can all be fully God and there only be one God. It's simply not possible. It's a logical contradiction.
Yes, and..?

The only problem with that line of reasoning is that the scripture said it was Samuel that spoke and not a demon deceiving Saul when it spoke. Only the truth is written in scripture and so if you read that again, knowing scripture cannot lie, then that was actually Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:5-20 <--- click on that reference to read if you want.
But again, the passage says nothing about a spirit. The passage actually says that the woman saw elohim, or gods. Was Samuel a god? Kings and Chronicles are historic books, they are the records of the kings. Saul didn't see whatever it was that came up, the woman explained what she saw. The Scriptures say that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel. Maybe Saul was wrong. However, since he thought he was talking with Samuel it's only logical that that's how it would be recorded. Who's going to record that it's a demon if they all think they're talking with Samuel? Paul said that the gods of the pagans were demons. The woman said she say gods. However, we're also told that it was a demon in Chronicles.

And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, -- (1 Chr. 10:13 YLT)

And here is the KJV.

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; (1 Chr. 10:13 KJV)

He was seeking information from a demon.
 

Butch5

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Your question is unclear since I am saying Jesus is God and so why ask?

Maybe soon He will help you at least understand my belief even if you do not agree with me. You can always try to pick out a paragraph that you do understand with His help and go from there. I do not mind.
What I'm asking is, when you say Jesus is God, what do you? What is God?
 

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No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

The truth is that man has seen God in the O.T. and it was not the Father but the Son as God.
Parts of God have been seen , but not his face . Exodus 33
I will give the verses in Exodus 33 starting with Moses making a request of God .

18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
 

Butch5

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My contention with Butch5 in the course of our discussion, is that he is saying Jesus is being God by Him saying the words of the Father.

When he was on earth with His disciples, He gave them power/the Holy Spirit temporarily in Matthew 10:1-20 where Judas Iscariot was among them, but note what Jesus said about how they will speak in verses 19-20.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Does that make them God or the Christ too? If Jesus is deity because He speaks the words of the Father, wat does that mean for His disciples when one was not a believer but a traitor?


Now that Jesus is in Heaven, and the words of the Father are now His as He speaks them though the Holy Spirit in us per John 16:13-15.

So we are speaking the words of the Father, right? "What does that make us?" is my question to Butch5

That is why I was going on about the Christ as God and why none of His disciples nor us are the Christ or God. Indeed, after we die, & in Heaven, there are no promises from the Father that the living can pray to us to get an answer to prayers.

Only Jesus does that per John 14:13-14 and only God answers prayers.

Thus Jesus is God, which he believes, but not the same way I do, for he contends on 'how' He is God for having the Spirit of the Father in Him for how & why He is saying the words of the Father whereas I contend that He is God of the Triune God, regardless of saying the words of the Father, because we're not God for saying them.

But it is possible that I am not understanding his position, needing clarification, as he is having trouble understanding mine in needing clarification from me because of my long post. Even though we are in disagreement with each other, yet we believe Jesus is God. Only God can minister that iron sharpen iron between us. I hope He does.
I'm not saying Jesus is God by speaking the words of the Father. Jesus is God (Deity) because He was born of the Father. He is of the same essence. However, when the Bible speaks of God, other than a few references, it is referring to the Father. The Father is the ultimate authority, the only true God, as Jesus put it.
 

Butch5

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Not really. It just means scripture saying Jesus is God since He is One with God the Father is also true.
The context is the pagans serving many gods and Paul said, "to us there is one God, the Father. He's not talking about unity with Jesus. He's contrasting the pagans who serve many Gods with the Christians who serve one.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

Scroll down to "Trail of Evidence" of extrabiblical evidence of early church debates where they had referenced the 1 John 5:7 in scripture far back as 200 A.D.

You say you rely on the KJV and yet cautious and so I can only assume that you believe 1 John 5:7 in the KJV was added to scripture. Hopefully, by now, you do not.
We've been through this. I don't hold that the passage is original. However, even if we allow for the passage it doesn't prove a triune God. In context verse 8 shows us that it's talking about unity, not number. The water, spirit, and blood, "agree" in one. That's unity. To say that verse 7 is talking about number doesn't fit with the context of the statement.
 

Butch5

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Parts of God have been seen , but not his face . Exodus 33
I will give the verses in Exodus 33 starting with Moses making a request of God .

18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
How do you reconcile your statement with John's? John said no man has seen God at any time. He didn't no man has seen God's face. He said no man has seen God at any time. Paul said that God was invisible, how have men seen Him?
 

for_his_glory

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That is why I was going on about the Christ as God and why none of His disciples nor us are the Christ or God. Indeed, after we die, & in Heaven, there are no promises from the Father that the living can pray to us to get an answer to prayers.
I think we can all agree none of us are Christ or God. When we die it's only the breath God gave us that made us a living soul that goes back to him as no one that has ever died has been taken up to heaven, John 3:13. But I digress as that is another topic.
 

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None of the translations are perfect. Think about this. Is a translator going to translate the bible in a way he thinks is wrong? Probably not. Therefore, what he believes influences how he translates. Consider that getting on a translation board if you're not a Trinitarian isn't likely to happen. What does that mean for all of the translations? They're all going to have a Trinitarian bent. If they all tend towards Trinitarianism what are the readers going to tend towards? Unless someone is willing to challenge the status quo everyone winds up being Trinitarian. I used to be one. I used many of the same arguments you're using. However, when I changed my presuppositions I began to see things differently. If one comes to the text believing in a third person of the Trinity they will see a third person. The problem is they have to ignore a lot of other Scripture. In order to prove a Triune God one must take the passages that go against their beliefs and show how they can be understood differently, if that is possible. Here's an example of translator bias,
Just trust Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you see the truth in His words. Because like it or not, others believe like you, whole churches even, for how you cannot say you have not been influenced to read scripture as they read it.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

Whole concepts have been developed over this verse. There is nothing in the Bible that says there is a place in Hades called Paradise. That idea comes from this passage. It is argued that since Jesus and the thief would be in paradise that day, and the dead go to Hades, there must be a place in Hades called Paradise. That is an inference, again, nothing in Scripture says there is a place in Hades called Paradise. Many, if not most, Christians believe that all people have eternal life and that they will spend it either in Heaven or Hell. Since they believe that the wicked must be alive somewhere after death, they determine that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an example of this. Most translators believe that Christians go to Heaven when they die. That's the Bias. Now, look at the passage if we simply move the comma from the beginning of the word today, to after it.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Suddenly the verse takes on a whole new meaning. It simple says at some point in time in the future the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise. It could be later that day or 100 years in the future. The passage doesn't indicate when if we simply move the comma. Since there is no punctuation in the Greek text the placement of the comma is simple at the translators discretion. What he believes about the afterlife determines where he puts the comma. When we move the comma to the end of the word today we are no longer forced to place in Hades a place called Paradise. Which is good because Jesus said that Paradise (Garden) was the garden of God. We know what the Garden of God is, it's Eden. So, Jesus was actually addressing the thief's request that he enter the Kingdom, He wasn't telling the thief where he'd be later that afternoon. Jesus was telling the Thief that he'd be in the Kingdom.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Reads to me that when the O.T. saints had died, they had not ascended to Heaven.

So that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus was a true story. Luke 16:20-31 as I apply Abraham's bosom to be the same as Paradise. It was after His resurrection and His ascension that Paradise is now in Heaven; 2 Corinthians 12:1-4
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)
This being the City of God after the great tribulation when it has come down to earth for God to dwell among men. Revelation 21:1-4
Jesus was telling the thief that he would have eternal life. So many Christians miss this because the comma is in the wrong place in this verse.
Jesus said specifically that he would be with Him in Paradise. At that time, Abraham's bosom aka Paradise is Heaven even though located beneath the earth awaiting for Jesus to bring them to God in Heaven with Paradise too.
My point was that they weren't one being. God didn't make them one being after they were joined. They were unified.
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.... 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

How do you apply these above references to mean then?
In the sense that the son of royalty is royalty, yes. However, that's not what most mean when they say Jesus is God. Most give Him all of the attributes of the Father who is ultimately God. This is why they can't explain how three persons can all be fully God and there only be one God. It's simply not possible. It's a logical contradiction.
I believe the misconception is the Trinity citing each, all equal as God but I'd say the reason why Jesus said God the Father is greater than Him is because He is the Father as it is His will be done, not His own. Otherwise, what example would that set for families if the father or the husband is not head over the household?

But that does not negate Jesus as if He is not God Himself in being One of the 3 Witnesses within that One God even though it is the Father's will that shall be done.
But again, the passage says nothing about a spirit. The passage actually says that the woman saw elohim, or gods. Was Samuel a god? Kings and Chronicles are historic books, they are the records of the kings. Saul didn't see whatever it was that came up, the woman explained what she saw. The Scriptures say that Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel. Maybe Saul was wrong. However, since he thought he was talking with Samuel it's only logical that that's how it would be recorded. Who's going to record that it's a demon if they all think they're talking with Samuel? Paul said that the gods of the pagans were demons. The woman said she say gods. However, we're also told that it was a demon in Chronicles.

And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, -- (1 Chr. 10:13 YLT)

And here is the KJV.

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; (1 Chr. 10:13 KJV)

He was seeking information from a demon.
No. For seeking counsel of one as a medium. So when scripture is written that Samuel said those words and they came true for Saul as words from the Lord, I believe tha was the spirit of Samuel after all.

Is Saul in hell? Everyone that had died under the Old Covenant have died in sin for why they are not in Heaven where God dwells since Jesus had to die for their sins to pay for them in order to bring them Home, including the thief in Paradise.

So I would refrain from concluding that Saul is in hell because it just said that he died in his sin. It would be definite if the scripture said that Saul went to hell, but it did not.
 

Golgotha

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Parts of God have been seen , but not his face . Exodus 33
I will give the verses in Exodus 33 starting with Moses making a request of God .

18 And he said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
That was for that moment with Moses in seeing His glory per verse 18 above, but having been a murderer and therefore may be the reason why he should not or could not see His face in His glory without causing his death per verse 20. Sin separates us from God and so to reveal His glory as God, Moses may not be able to survive it.

However, Abraham had seen the Lord and provided a meal & drink for Him as He did eat & drank in Genesis 18:1-15 when "Jesus" as that Lord then said Sara would have a son.

Jacob wrestled with the Lord and had seen His face in Genesis 32:24-30

So with His help, we can align the truth in His words by discerning this had to do with Moses wanting to see His glory as God and not exactly His face.

When we consider how Jesus transfigured Himself to His disciples at one time, one may fathom the revelation that the glory of God in seeing His face then is different from just seeing His face outside of that glory.
 

Golgotha

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I'm not saying Jesus is God by speaking the words of the Father. Jesus is God (Deity) because He was born of the Father. He is of the same essence. However, when the Bible speaks of God, other than a few references, it is referring to the Father. The Father is the ultimate authority, the only true God, as Jesus put it.
Thank you for sharing and for that clarification.

Are you referring born of the Father regarding His incarnation or are you saying He was born or created before the creation of the world?

Supper time. I got to go. God be willing, I shall return.
 

Butch5

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Just trust Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you see the truth in His words. Because like it or not, others believe like you, whole churches even, for how you cannot say you have not been influenced to read scripture as they read it.
I did that a long time ago and now I have the benefits of those prayers.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Reads to me that when the O.T. saints had died, they had not ascended to Heaven.

So that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus was a true story. Luke 16:20-31 as I apply Abraham's bosom to be the same as Paradise. It was after His resurrection and His ascension that Paradise is now in Heaven; 2 Corinthians 12:1-4
No, they hadn't. No one goes to Heaven. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says people go to Heaven. That is another of the erroneous teachings. John wrote his gospel about 60 years after Jesus ascended and he said that no one had ascended into Heaven except Jesus.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

So, Paradise can't be in Heaven.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man can't be a true story. Dead people can't speak.
This being the City of God after the great tribulation when it has come down to earth for God to dwell among men. Revelation 21:1-4

Jesus said specifically that he would be with Him in Paradise. At that time, Abraham's bosom aka Paradise is Heaven even though located beneath the earth awaiting for Jesus to bring them to God in Heaven with Paradise too.
As I pointed out above, no one goes to Heaven. Paradise is Eden in the restored earth. Abraham's bosom is a man's chest. Abraham's bosom is spoken of elsewhere in Scripture.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Hagar was in Abraham's bosom. She wasn't dead and she wasn't somewhere down in the earth. She was intimate with him. John leaned on Jesus' bosom. Jesus is in the bosom of the Father. None of these bosoms are located down in the earth. Think about it, if there was a place down in the earth, why in the world would it be called Abraham's bosom?
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.... 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

How do you apply these above references to mean then?
They're talking about unity. A man and woman can't be unified if one is committing adultery. However, take notice of what Paul said in the verse you quoted. He said Christ is the savior of the body. He didn't say He was the savior of the spirit.
I believe the misconception is the Trinity citing each, all equal as God but I'd say the reason why Jesus said God the Father is greater than Him is because He is the Father as it is His will be done, not His own. Otherwise, what example would that set for families if the father or the husband is not head over the household?

But that does not negate Jesus as if He is not God Himself in being One of the 3 Witnesses within that One God even though it is the Father's will that shall be done.
That's a logical contradiction.
No. For seeking counsel of one as a medium. So when scripture is written that Samuel said those words and they came true for Saul as words from the Lord, I believe tha was the spirit of Samuel after all.

Is Saul in hell? Everyone that had died under the Old Covenant have died in sin for why they are not in Heaven where God dwells since Jesus had to die for their sins to pay for them in order to bring them Home, including the thief in Paradise.

So I would refrain from concluding that Saul is in hell because it just said that he died in his sin. It would be definite if the scripture said that Saul went to hell, but it did not.
But Samuel wasn't a spirit. As I said, the passage doesn't even mention spirit. Whatever the woman saw, she said it was gods. As Chronicles says, Saul inquired of a familiar spirit, a demon.
 

Butch5

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Thank you for sharing and for that clarification.

Are you referring born of the Father regarding His incarnation or are you saying He was born or created before the creation of the world?

Supper time. I got to go. God be willing, I shall return.
You're welcome! It's my contention that Jesus was born of the Father before all creation.
 

Golgotha

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I did that a long time ago and now I have the benefits of those prayers.

No, they hadn't. No one goes to Heaven. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says people go to Heaven. That is another of the erroneous teachings. John wrote his gospel about 60 years after Jesus ascended and he said that no one had ascended into Heaven except Jesus.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 KJV)

So, Paradise can't be in Heaven.
At the time Jesus had said that, it was true. The O.T. saints had died and gone to Paradise aka Abraham's bosom therefore John 3:13 was true at that time.

Which hints us that Enoch & Elijah were taken into the upper atmosphere and are travelling through time to be dropped off as those 2 witnesses for the beginning of the great tribulation until they die halfway through, get resurrected, and commanded to come up hither hence another rapture even but just for those 2.

But I digress.

Paul testified indirectly of the apostle John for how he was caught up to the third heavens in Paradise to write the things he has seen and heard there for the Book of Revelation. Paradise is now located in Heaven since His ascension 2 Corinthians 12:1-4
 
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