Jesus Is God: Part 1

[WalterandDebbie]

Sorry about that but thanks for attempting at a clarification below in how you believe.

Well, I understand at least why you believe that between those 2 references but there are other scripture to the contrary for why you should pause in applying those 2 references to mean that.

John 4:24 is Jesus informing the woman at the well that times are changing now that no one has to go to the mountains nor to Jerusalem to worship God any more with Jesus there. God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence so that believers can worship Him anywhere now. That is the meaning in context of that reference of God is a Spirit.

As for applying Genesis 1:2 to that, to "prove" that the Father has no celestial body, is to do so without aligning with other scriptures that testifies otherwise. Genesis 1:26-27 & John 14:23-26 & John 16:23-28 KJV for when we are in Heaven to ask the Father directly in seeing Him as we would not need Jesus any more to ask for us.

As it is even though no man has seen the Father, but Jesus said He did in Heaven.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So when taking other scriptures in consideration, Genesis 1:2 cannot apply to John 4:24 since the Father can be seen and we will see Him when we get to Heaven

Thanks for sharing and having the patience to share your beliefs with me.

I thank you also for your patience with me.

Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I thank you also for your patience with me.

Walter

Golgotha said:
Sorry about that but thanks for attempting at a clarification below in how you believe.

Well, I understand at least why you believe that between those 2 references but there are other scripture to the contrary for why you should pause in applying those 2 references to mean that.

John 4:24 is Jesus informing the woman at the well that times are changing now that no one has to go to the mountains nor to Jerusalem to worship God any more with Jesus there. God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence so that believers can worship Him anywhere now. That is the meaning in context of that reference of God is a Spirit.

As for applying Genesis 1:2 to that, to "prove" that the Father has no celestial body, is to do so without aligning with other scriptures that testifies otherwise. Genesis 1:26-27 & John 14:23-26 & John 16:23-28 KJV for when we are in Heaven to ask the Father directly in seeing Him as we would not need Jesus any more to ask for us.

As it is even though no man has seen the Father, but Jesus said He did in Heaven.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So when taking other scriptures in consideration, Genesis 1:2 cannot apply to John 4:24 since the Father can be seen and we will see Him when we get to Heaven

Thanks for sharing and having the patience to share your beliefs with me.


Walter: The above is what you have said, prove to me that, I can take heed but you can not?

That we should speak the same thing being on one accord, one thing is praying for one another, but what I think since we are Brothers in Christ, we must not have divisions as to what the LORD has said.

The fact that we speak with one accord and with one mouth (see Rom. 15:6) means that, even though we are many and we all are speaking, we all speak the same thing (1 Cor. 1:10). We need to be those speaking the same thing ith one mouth in one accord as the one new man today.

Thanks for sharing.

Love, Walter

 

[Golgotha]

Golgotha said:
Sorry about that but thanks for attempting at a clarification below in how you believe.

Well, I understand at least why you believe that between those 2 references but there are other scripture to the contrary for why you should pause in applying those 2 references to mean that.

John 4:24 is Jesus informing the woman at the well that times are changing now that no one has to go to the mountains nor to Jerusalem to worship God any more with Jesus there. God is a Spirit is referring to His Omnipresence so that believers can worship Him anywhere now. That is the meaning in context of that reference of God is a Spirit.

As for applying Genesis 1:2 to that, to "prove" that the Father has no celestial body, is to do so without aligning with other scriptures that testifies otherwise. Genesis 1:26-27 & John 14:23-26 & John 16:23-28 KJV for when we are in Heaven to ask the Father directly in seeing Him as we would not need Jesus any more to ask for us.

As it is even though no man has seen the Father, but Jesus said He did in Heaven.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So when taking other scriptures in consideration, Genesis 1:2 cannot apply to John 4:24 since the Father can be seen and we will see Him when we get to Heaven

Thanks for sharing and having the patience to share your beliefs with me.

Walter: The above is what you have said, prove to me that, I can take heed but you can not?

That we should speak the same thing being on one accord, one thing is praying for one another, but what I think since we are Brothers in Christ, we must not have divisions as to what the LORD has said.

The fact that we speak with one accord and with one mouth (see Rom. 15:6) means that, even though we are many and we all are speaking, we all speak the same thing (1 Cor. 1:10). We need to be those speaking the same thing ith one mouth in one accord as the one new man today.

Thanks for sharing.

Love, Walter

Scripture cannot go against scripture for why the lost books are not in the accepted Bible.

In rightly dividing the word of truth, the scripture I have shared with you is why Genesis 1:2 & John 4:24 cannot be applied as you mean when the Father can be seen and will be seen in Heaven when we get there in John 16:23-28 and that Jesus testified that no man has seen the Father BUT Jesus did in John 1:18 & John 6:46.

Unless you can explain away those references, that is why you should take pause and discern with Him if you are rightly dividing the word of truth for Genesis 1:2 & John 4:24 about the Father just being a Spirit when Jesus said God is a Spirit instead, thus I believe He is referring to God's omnipresence in regards to where to go to worship God, rather to the Father having no celestial body,

Thank you for sharing. I do rely on God to cause the increase in or discussion and we can find the truth in scripture with His help when they are not opposing other scriptures.

In Christ's Love,

Golgotha

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Scripture cannot go against scripture for why the lost books are not in the accepted Bible.

In rightly dividing the word of truth, the scripture I have shared with you is why Genesis 1:2 & John 4:24 cannot be applied as you mean when the Father can be seen and will be seen in Heaven when we get there in John 16:23-28 and that Jesus testified that no man has seen the Father BUT Jesus did in John 1:18 & John 6:46.

Unless you can explain away those references, that is why you should take pause and discern with Him if you are rightly dividing the word of truth for Genesis 1:2 & John 4:24 about the Father just being a Spirit when Jesus said God is a Spirit instead, thus I believe He is referring to God's omnipresence in regards to where to go to worship God, rather to the Father having no celestial body,

Thank you for sharing. I do rely on God to cause the increase in or discussion and we can find the truth in scripture with His help when they are not opposing other scriptures.

In Christ's Love,

Golgotha

You are correct when you are saying your first statement but in your 2nd. to me is incorrect.

and in your 3rd. statement I have explained those references along with others.

Brother, we have agreed that GOD is Spirit, and we have not agreed to Jesus is The Son of The Living GOD, as Peter has said.

Then, do you believe in what Paul said in?:

2 Corinthians 5:19​

“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

It is getting late, thanks for sharing.


Love, Walter

 

[Golgotha]

You are correct when you are saying your first statement but in your 2nd. to me is incorrect.

and in your 3rd. statement I have explained those references along with others.

I do not recall you addressing John 16:23-28. Which post was that? Maybe I had missed it somehow. Or better yet repeat it again in your next reply. Thanks.

I vaguely recall you addressing John 1:18 & John 6:46, but indirectly as referring me to another scripture thus dismissing it without explaining those verses in according to maintaining your belief in rightly dividing the word of truth of your belief to me.

Brother, we have agreed that GOD is Spirit,

I believe God is omnipresence for why Jesus said God is Spirit.

and we have not agreed to Jesus is The Son of The Living GOD, as Peter has said.

Not sure I am following you here. I believe Jesus is God the Son for Peter to say that and Jesus did not disagree nor clarified his statement nor the high priest for why His additional statement at being at the right hand of power as God was blasphemous also, ( although the charge is false ) for why He was crucified

Then, do you believe in what Paul said in?:

2 Corinthians 5:19​

“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

It is getting late, thanks for sharing.

Love, Walter

I do thank you for sharing, ad since we prophesy in part ad know in part is why each of us are to rely on the Lord to minister to us in pruning us or correcting us in the knowledge of Him so we may be more fruitful as our love may abound more & more.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

In explaining 2 Corinthians 5:19, may He help me share my belief. I believe we will be in Heaven when we will see God the Father as well as God the Son for why we would not need the Son to ask for us, as we can ask the Father directly in Heaven per John 16:23-28.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.... 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So that is the effect of reconciliation so that when we actually receive our redemption as partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection, at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ, we will be with the Lord forever in Heaven as one with God in such a way that we will see God the Father as well as God the Son, the Bridegroom in Heaven in that Godhood as Butch5 has referred to or as I referred to as the Godhead or being with the One God in Heaven.

We are married to the Bridegroom as one with the Lord, and thus one with the Father so that when we are in Heaven, we will see God the Father & God the Son; thus see the 2 of the 3 Witnesses within the One God. I am not sure if we will see the Holy Spirit but seeing how He had manifested to be seen as alighting on Jesus like a dove, it may be possible, but we shall know, God be willing, when we get there.

Those who are not partakers of the firstfruits but are Christ's at His coming, be the left behind saints, former believers, or new believers after the rapture event, are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:20-21 ) as the least in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 5:19 ) for not departing from iniquity as dwelling on earth in serving the King of kings in that kingdom of heaven when the City of God comes down where God shall dwell with men.

I am not sure if they will be able to see God the Father until afterwards when the devil, his angels, death, hell & those not found written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. It is after that Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father thus sin and death will never separate them from God the Father, nor God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit, hence God, ever again.

Kind of brings a whole new meaning for "God is with us".

It seems blasphemous. Certainly, if I said that to the Jews in the early church days, I would have been stoned. But Jesus did say this when questioning Him saying He is God.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Then there is that saying we will do greater works than Jesus even though He is doing the work that only God can do.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I have not seen any of His disciples do "greater works than He did" and so I believe He is referring to when we are Home with the Father & the Son in Heaven as firstfruits.

Unless the Lord use someone to correct me on this belief, it looks like we will be one with God where it will be impossible to sin against Him to never be separated from Him again & we will be forever with the Lord as One.

I can imagine getting a hug from the Father and not just from the Son in Heaven.

Anyway, hopefully, the Lord helped me to explain my belief as it is now. I am open to correction, but that is the truth in scripture as I see & apply it today, thanks to Jesus.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I do not recall you addressing John 16:23-28. Which post was that? Maybe I had missed it somehow. Or better yet repeat it again in your next reply. Thanks.

I vaguely recall you addressing John 1:18 & John 6:46, but indirectly as referring me to another scripture thus dismissing it without explaining those verses in according to maintaining your belief in rightly dividing the word of truth of your belief to me.

I believe God is omnipresence for why Jesus said God is Spirit.

Not sure I am following you here. I believe Jesus is God the Son for Peter to say that and Jesus did not disagree nor clarified his statement nor the high priest for why His additional statement at being at the right hand of power as God was blasphemous also, ( although the charge is false ) for why He was crucified

I do thank you for sharing, ad since we prophesy in part ad know in part is why each of us are to rely on the Lord to minister to us in pruning us or correcting us in the knowledge of Him so we may be more fruitful as our love may abound more & more.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

In explaining 2 Corinthians 5:19, may He help me share my belief. I believe we will be in Heaven when we will see God the Father as well as God the Son for why we would not need the Son to ask for us, as we can ask the Father directly in Heaven per John 16:23-28.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.... 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So that is the effect of reconciliation so that when we actually receive our redemption as partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection, at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ, we will be with the Lord forever in Heaven as one with God in such a way that we will see God the Father as well as God the Son, the Bridegroom in Heaven in that Godhood as Butch5 has referred to or as I referred to as the Godhead or being with the One God in Heaven.

We are married to the Bridegroom as one with the Lord, and thus one with the Father so that when we are in Heaven, we will see God the Father & God the Son; thus see the 2 of the 3 Witnesses within the One God. I am not sure if we will see the Holy Spirit but seeing how He had manifested to be seen as alighting on Jesus like a dove, it may be possible, but we shall know, God be willing, when we get there.

Those who are not partakers of the firstfruits but are Christ's at His coming, be the left behind saints, former believers, or new believers after the rapture event, are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:20-21 ) as the least in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 5:19 ) for not departing from iniquity as dwelling on earth in serving the King of kings in that kingdom of heaven when the City of God comes down where God shall dwell with men.

I am not sure if they will be able to see God the Father until afterwards when the devil, his angels, death, hell & those not found written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. It is after that Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father thus sin and death will never separate them from God the Father, nor God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit, hence God, ever again.

Kind of brings a whole new meaning for "God is with us".

It seems blasphemous. Certainly, if I said that to the Jews in the early church days, I would have been stoned. But Jesus did say this when questioning Him saying He is God.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Then there is that saying we will do greater works than Jesus even though He is doing the work that only God can do.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I have not seen any of His disciples do "greater works than He did" and so I believe He is referring to when we are Home with the Father & the Son in Heaven as firstfruits.

Unless the Lord use someone to correct me on this belief, it looks like we will be one with God where it will be impossible to sin against Him to never be separated from Him again & we will be forever with the Lord as One.

I can imagine getting a hug from the Father and not just from the Son in Heaven.

Anyway, hopefully, the Lord helped me to explain my belief as it is now. I am open to correction, but that is the truth in scripture as I see & apply it today, thanks to Jesus.

You are correct when you are saying your first statement but in your 2nd. to me is incorrect.

and in your 3rd. statement I have explained those references along with others.

I do not recall you addressing John 16:23-28. Which post was that? Maybe I had missed it somehow. Or better yet repeat it again in your next reply. Thanks.

Walter: John 16:16-33 is to me what John Sixteen 23-28 The Predictions Of Christ's Death and Resurrection

John 16:16-33​

​

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.​

17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Brother, I do thank you for the info.

Love, Walter

 

[Butch5]

Butch5

If you ever considered why Jesus was crucified, it was for the false charge of blasphemy.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Let us consider the full scope of what Jesus has said for why He was charged with blasphemy.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Yet can Him being on the right hand of power means He is One with God as in God? We find Jesus being the first and the last below, as that ties in above.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:.... 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. 12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

So The Lord said in Isaiah that HE will do it and that He will not share His glory with another; that I am he, I am the first, I also am the last again as that ties in with Revelation 1:17-18 signifying the Lord Jesus Christ as that God in Isaiah.

God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour as scripture testifies Jesus is God.

So the charge of blasphemy is false for He had to be sinless to die on the cross in giving Himself as a ransom for many by taking on the sins of the world. Only God Our Creator can do this as God Our Redeemer. Something to ask Jesus about.

Which is another thing; we pray to God the Father but we also pray to Jesus at that throne of grace. That position makes Him God as well for us to be praying to Him.

We are not to pray to any other departed saints because no one else is at that throne of grace because they are not God. Hebrews 4:12-16 Reads to me Jesus is being God.

Jesus spoke the words of the Father.

 

[Butch5]

I prefer the KJV for the actual message and thus the truth in His words.

So what Bible version are you using and what does it say here?

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

How is that not Jesus being equal with God here sharing the same hand of salvation?

I too prefer the KJV, however, I understand it's limitations. What we have to remember is that translations are influenced by the beliefs of the translator. No translation is perfect.

Jesus and the Father are one in unity. God created man and woman and said they shall become one flesh. Did they morph into a single being? No, they didn't. The goal was for them to be unified.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The Jews understood what He was saying for why they tried to stone Him, and Jesus said this.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

And they tried to stone Him again.

What did He say? Did He say He was God, or the Son of God? You quoted it above. He said He was the Son of God. Please explain to me how Jesus is the Son of Himself.

Scripture says we have the Spirit of Christ in us. Paul said that.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Now as far as human spirits goes, in 1 Samuel 28:5-20, King Saul had fallen out of favor with the Lord and he wanted counsel but got none from Him and so he went to a medium to call up the spirit of the prophet Samuel and that had happened. So there are spirits of human beings as Jesus confirmed them in referring to Abraham's bosom aka Paradise when it used to be located beneath the earth but across the great gulf from hell. Luke 16:19-31 Now after His resurrection and His ascension, Paradise and all her inhabitants has been taken to Heaven as Paul testified "indirectly" of the apostle John and that Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

Do click on those scripture references to read why I had applied my comments to them.

The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

Regarding a human spirit, none of these passages even mention a spirit. Lazarus and the Rich Man is parable. The even to call up Samuel was a demon. Saul sought a demon possessed woman. Do you really think a demon could command God's prophet? With Paul we don't know if it was a vision or an actual experience. Either way none of these passages even mention a spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Tell me how you are conditioned in reading these verses?

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Reads to me Jesus is talking about different Person that the Father will send at our salvation moment for He shall dwell in us forever by how we will know Him from the spirits in the world in how the world knows them by seeing them when receiving.

Plus Jesus said that this Person will teach us all things and bring things into remembrance of all Jesus said unto us as everything He said in that chapter all the way up to chapter 16 is for the believers.

So how you read those passages as if not Another Person is doing those things?

He said that to the apostles. If all believers were being lead into all truth there would one unified church. There wouldn't be numerous denominations. The Spirit lead the apostles into all truth. Their doctrine was 100% correct. You said all the way up to chapter 16 is for believers. In chapter 16 Jesus also said that what He had been saying about the Helper was figurative language speaking of the Father.

25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (Jn. 16:25 NKJ)

All that Jesus said about the Helper was speaking figuratively about the Father. How then it this a third person?

 

[Butch5]

You should consider if you are inferring your beliefs into those verses.

Romans 15:13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

I read this verse into those verse but I see a Third Person in the One God still.

I used to hold your view. It was looking at Scripture and setting aside those views and letting the Scriptures speak that changed my mind.

Question, what is the "One God"? The three persons are one what?

 

[Butch5]

It depends on if you just ignore the rest of Paul's sayings. It would be like saying Jesus only died and leave out the verses about His resurrection, and all that He did before His ascension just to say Jesus died, 'so there" attitude, as if that settles it when other scriptures says there is more to that truth.

Actually, it's not. Paul said to the Corinthians, "to us there is one God, the Father". That's either right or wrong. If there is not just one God, the Father, for Christians then Paul's statement is wrong. If there is Scripture that contradicts this statement then we have a problem. However, there is nothing in Scripture that says there is a triune God. Nothing at all. That's why we don't see it in Christianity until the fifth century. Since, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of a triune God It must be concluded that the concept is by way of Inference. That's the key to the whole issue. Inferences are conclusions drawn based on given evidence. The problem with inferences is that they can be wrong. So, what we have is a situation where people have taken certain passages of Scripture and drawn a conclusion. The problem is that the conclusion they have drawn contradicts other passages of Scripture. People have taken the Shema, hear O Israel, the Lord is one, and other passages that refer to Jesus as God and drawn the conclusion that there is one being called God who consists of three persons. This is actually a logical contradiction. However, if we understand the "one" in unity everything makes perfect sense and we don't have to try to explain a logical contradiction. Having drawn this conclusion people then argue for it even though other Scripture flatly refutes it. Paul's words flatly refute it. The Early Christian belief flatly refutes it. Jesus' words flatly refute it. The Father Himself flatly refutes it. One has to wonder why with such evidence Christians continue to argue against the Scriptures for a fifth century doctrine that isn't stated anywhere in Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

So this is how you are reading your belief into those verses. Better prove that by the scripture, brother, because I have seen some of those scripture reference for each line of the modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. on how they do not always prove every line.

For your reference, the scripture says otherwise.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now what Bible version do you use for how you read those verses because I see not the Father but the Word of God aka Jesus as the Creator of all things per the Father's permission when you go to Genesis 1:26-27 for the request made for the creation of man.

I already gave you Scripture. Paul said Jesus was the First born of all creation. That means He was begotten before all worlds.

And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col. 1:15 NAS)

I see it as the Word of God made the request for which the father agrees for why the Son did it with the Father and the Spirit in agreement.

I'd say He was the Son of God that was seen in the O.T. before He gave it up to be the incarnated as the prophesied Son of Man to give His life as a ransom for many.

Because Jesus is the King of kings prophesied to be coming at the end of the great tribulation to rule on earth for a thousand years. He is the God that is appearing.

He is. All authority was given to Him after His resurrection. Before that He didn't have all authority. He wasn't King of Kings when He didn't have the authority. He was given all authority at His resurrection and will have it through His reign. Then when all is complete He will turn the Kingdom over to the Father and will once gain be subject to the Father.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

Yet Jesus said this about scripture in Who they are to testify of in coming to for life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Again, this is when He reigns

If God is the Saviour & Jesus is the Saviour, then how is it you do not see Jesus as God?

I do see Jesus as God, Deity. Not part of another being. Why wouldn't they both be savior since without either one there would be no salvation?

 

[Butch5]

Is there historical evidence for the darkness & earthquake at the crucifixion?

The annual Passover is to be held 15 days from the new moon which makes it a full moon when Christ had died. And yet 3 hours of unexplained darkness was recorded at the time when Jesus had experienced the separation from the Father when Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself & so it cannot be an eclipse. Eclipse lasts minutes, not 3 hours.

The Light of the world took our sins and the unexplained darkness had come. Secular reports of only the stars could be seen as a mercy for those at sea that depend on them for directions, but the sun went out & thus the moon went out too for 3 hours.

Why would nature "reflect" what Christ has done on the cross unless He was and is Our Creator Whom was taking our sins upon Himself for why He had experienced that momentary separation from the Father?

Can He be God Our Redeemer because He is God the Creator? I believe so.

He is the Creator. So is the Father. The Father gave the commands. The Father is the mastermind. But this is all subjective.

 

[Golgotha]

Jesus spoke the words of the Father.

So how would that look if we said that? Would that make us look like a christ?

Since God in us, we could say the "words of the Father" and be as the Christ is, but that would be false, right? It certainly would be hard to apply the "words of the Father" here for us to take heed of.

Matthew 24: 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Since there is only One Christ and His saying the words of the Father in how the Father's words are His words now for how & why everything the Holy Spirit says thru us and do through us, the Holy Spirit defers the credit & glory to Jesus Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And how all power has been given unto Him in Heaven to hear our prayers & answers them as God only can.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I doubt any of the departed saints are answering prayers as only God can do.

I believe you need to consider the full ramification of your comment in application because then we are saying the words of the Father too & yet we are not the Christ Whom is God & after we die, we are certainly not God to be answering any prayers.

 

[Butch5]

So how would that look if we said that? Would that make us look like a christ?

Since God in us, we could say the "words of the Father" and be as the Christ is, but that would be false, right? It certainly would be hard to apply the "words of the Father" here for us to take heed of.

Matthew 24: 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Since there is only One Christ and His saying the words of the Father in how the Father's words are His words now for how & why everything the Holy Spirit says thru us and do through us, the Holy Spirit defers the credit & glory to Jesus Christ.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And how all power has been given unto Him in Heaven to hear our prayers & answers them as God only can.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I doubt any of the departed saints are answering prayers as only God can do.

I believe you need to consider the full ramification of your comment in application because then we are saying the words of the Father too & yet we are not the Christ Whom is God & after we die, we are certainly not God to be answering any prayers.

Sorry, I'm not following where you're going with this. Again, you say Jesus is God, what is He?

 

[Golgotha]

I too prefer the KJV, however, I understand it's limitations. What we have to remember is that translations are influenced by the beliefs of the translator. No translation is perfect.

Examples should be given, even if it is just one.

I can give an example like Matthew 5:29-30 & Matthew 10:28 & Matthew 18:9 where the Greek word "geena" or Gehenna has been translated to mean hell in English but Jesus is referring to a place of slaughter on earth for why He is warning believers to repent of with His help or else; Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-30 Even Strong's Concordance for Matthew 18:8 used that Greek word for everlasting fire in English to mislead the reader in reading hell as referring to the after life when it is not. 2 Peter 3:3-18 testify of a coming fiery judgment on earth after the rapture that believers are to endured to the end to escape from or else as Jesus confirms in Luke 21:33-36.

Anyway, not sure if false teachings of believers can go to hell or lose their salvation is what caused that to be translated into English like that, but I do see your point.

Even Revelations 3:5 where the double negative in the Greek is not really translated into English to convey the message that Jesus would never blot out any one's name out of the Book of Life but they can lose their "inheritance" or their "part" in that City of God by not being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection; Revelation 22:19

Jesus and the Father are one in unity. God created man and woman and said they shall become one flesh. Did they morph into a single being? No, they didn't. The goal was for them to be unified.

In God's eye they are one flesh. This is something God has accomplished by marrying them; not something they were to accomplish. By not being unified as you put it, when one commits adultery, that sin is known by denying what God has done.

Matthew 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

So what happens when one decide to get a divorce by agreeing to no longer be united?

Matthew 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Words of the Father. There is no goal but a recognition & respect of what God has done and now with Christ in us, they have His help to be united in Him for a fruitful marriage even though they are one flesh in marriage regardless.

What did He say? Did He say He was God, or the Son of God? You quoted it above. He said He was the Son of God. Please explain to me how Jesus is the Son of Himself.

The son of a human is a human, and so a Son of God is God. That is why the question "are thou the Christ, the Son of the living God?' and His answer to the affirmative is why it is blasphemous to the Jews to have Him crucified.

The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

Yes, and..?

Regarding a human spirit, none of these passages even mention a spirit. Lazarus and the Rich Man is parable. The even to call up Samuel was a demon. Saul sought a demon possessed woman. Do you really think a demon could command God's prophet? With Paul we don't know if it was a vision or an actual experience. Either way none of these passages even mention a spirit.

The only problem with that line of reasoning is that the scripture said it was Samuel that spoke and not a demon deceiving Saul when it spoke. Only the truth is written in scripture and so if you read that again, knowing scripture cannot lie, then that was actually Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:5-20 <--- click on that reference to read if you want.

 

[Golgotha]

He said that to the apostles. If all believers were being lead into all truth there would one unified church. There wouldn't be numerous denominations. The Spirit lead the apostles into all truth. Their doctrine was 100% correct. You said all the way up to chapter 16 is for believers. In chapter 16 Jesus also said that what He had been saying about the Helper was figurative language speaking of the Father.

Yet He also said this to His disciples for why " if " it was only directed to His disciples and not all believers seeking to be His disciples, there would be fewer disciples since you only applied it to those specific apostles.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

So what He said from John chapter 14 to 16 chapter is for believers seeking to be His disciples. Here is how a believer become His disciples in bearing fruit & having joy.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. (Jn. 16:25 NKJ)

All that Jesus said about the Helper was speaking figuratively about the Father. How then it this a third person?

Compare with the KJV

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. KJV

That is why I rely only on the KJV when modern Bibles, even the NKJV changes the message in His words. You have to ask yourself why change proverbs to figurative language? Is that not what you relied on the KJV for and yet cautious to other beliefs being inserted in the KJV? Why did you not do that for the NKJV?

When I compare the 2 in context at this link: I read the reason why Jesus is telling His disciples that when they get to Heaven in hat day, that time that is coming, they will no longer have need to ask the Son to ask the Father for them but they can ask the Father directly for they will plainly see the Father.

It cannot be "tell" simply because it would go against Him speaking to them. Sine Jesus is referring to a time coming as in that day when they are in Heaven, is why Jesus is explaining to His disciples how they will no longer need Him to ask the Father for them. He will show the Father unto them to no longer speak to them in proverbs nor need to ask the Father for them. That is how much the Father will love them.

When you take the message in context from both the KJV & the NKJV, you may see the truth in His words for why it cannot be tell ( although logically out of context, it seems right ) but because in context shew or show explains why they can ask the Father directly in Heaven without needing Jesus to ask for them in that day.

 

[Golgotha]

I used to hold your view. It was looking at Scripture and setting aside those views and letting the Scriptures speak that changed my mind.

Question, what is the "One God"? The three persons are one what?

Three Persons are the One God.

Did you know the Hebrew word for God as written in English in the O.T. is plural? Elohim also used in reference to false gods.

The Jews tried to explain it away but there can only be one truth; for God to command men to have 2 or 3 witnesses to establish a testimony or to condemn anyone, and no single witness alone can establish a testimony or judge anyone else, then that is how God does it too as there are Three Witnesses within the One God. Otherwise God is a hypocrite in according to His own words if He was a One Person One God.

John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So how can God the Father judge anyone in the O.T. & yet God has judged in the O.T.?

 

[Golgotha]

Actually, it's not. Paul said to the Corinthians, "to us there is one God, the Father". That's either right or wrong. If there is not just one God, the Father, for Christians then Paul's statement is wrong. If there is Scripture that contradicts this statement then we have a problem.

Not really. It just means scripture saying Jesus is God since He is One with God the Father is also true.

However, there is nothing in Scripture that says there is a triune God. Nothing at all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

That's why we don't see it in Christianity until the fifth century.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

Scroll down to "Trail of Evidence" of extrabiblical evidence of early church debates where they had referenced the 1 John 5:7 in scripture far back as 200 A.D.

Since, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of a triune God It must be concluded that the concept is by way of Inference. That's the key to the whole issue. Inferences are conclusions drawn based on given evidence. The problem with inferences is that they can be wrong. So, what we have is a situation where people have taken certain passages of Scripture and drawn a conclusion. The problem is that the conclusion they have drawn contradicts other passages of Scripture. People have taken the Shema, hear O Israel, the Lord is one, and other passages that refer to Jesus as God and drawn the conclusion that there is one being called God who consists of three persons. This is actually a logical contradiction. However, if we understand the "one" in unity everything makes perfect sense and we don't have to try to explain a logical contradiction. Having drawn this conclusion people then argue for it even though other Scripture flatly refutes it. Paul's words flatly refute it. The Early Christian belief flatly refutes it. Jesus' words flatly refute it. The Father Himself flatly refutes it. One has to wonder why with such evidence Christians continue to argue against the Scriptures for a fifth century doctrine that isn't stated anywhere in Scripture.

You say you rely on the KJV and yet cautious and so I can only assume that you believe 1 John 5:7 in the KJV was added to scripture. Hopefully, by now, you do not.

 

[Golgotha]

I already gave you Scripture. Paul said Jesus was the First born of all creation. That means He was begotten before all worlds.

And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Col. 1:15 NAS)

What do you take Colossians 1:15 to mean? That God the Father is invisible? Then discern this. If Jesus is first born of all creation, then how can He be the image of the invisible God? Why isn't Jesus also invisible as that image as well as the rest of creation?

Then ask Him if invisible means something else than spirit only... like I had shared earlier about that verse regarding Jesus Christ as that King and God & invisible too.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe verse 17 is about Jesus Christ as the King of kings Who is presently invisible as not presently seen by us right now, but we will see Him at His appearing as God.

So consider this; I could pull scripture out of context like John 5:22 and say the Father judges no man and erroneously say the Father is not God, because Jesus is the only wise God for why He will judge us.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

But that is not the whole truth as you can refer to Paul in what he had shared about the Father. So how can Paul be saying seemingly two different messages? He is not.

There is only One wise God consisting of Three Witnesses within that One God. Paul's witness of the Father as the One God is true but so is Paul's witness of the Son as only the only wise God is true also.

He is. All authority was given to Him after His resurrection. Before that He didn't have all authority. He wasn't King of Kings when He didn't have the authority. He was given all authority at His resurrection and will have it through His reign. Then when all is complete He will turn the Kingdom over to the Father and will once gain be subject to the Father.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

Again, this is when He reigns

Your reference is Jesus giving the kingdom back to the Father, overlooking before that event His reign on earth for a thousand years as that King of kings.

I do see Jesus as God, Deity. Not part of another being. Why wouldn't they both be savior since without either one there would be no salvation?

Then maybe you can see He has always been God before the creation of the world for how else can a One God establish a word in creation unless He has always been a Three Persons in the One God?