Mungo
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They are present in scripture
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Question About Mary
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Mungo
Member
They were false queens of heaven.
It's not wrong to honour the true Queen of Heaven just because pagans worshipped a false queen of heaven, just as it's not wrong to worship the true God because pagans worshipped false gods.
I stand corrected. Jeremiah 7:18a, "Children are gathering firewood, fathers are building fires with it, and women are mixing dough to bake cakes to offer to the goddess they call the Queen of Heaven." and elsewhere in Jeremiah.
Obviously this is not about Mary.
You wrote "There is no formal dogma that Mary is Queen of Heaven but Many Popes have used this tile of Mary, including Pope Pius XII who wrote an Encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam in which he proclaimed a feast day in honour of Mary as Queen of Heaven."
So there is no formal dogma to back up your claim.
Corn Pop
Member
So do you believe God almighty the creator of all things, including Mary, has a wife or a mother?. As in there is a Mother of God or a Queen of Heaven?.
What about Eve , shes the mother of the living, she's the mother of all. She is Queen of the living through her comes Mary and Christ.
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Mungo
Member
I didn't say anything about a wife. But Jesus had a mother and Jesus was God.
Scripture says nothing about Eve being the Queen of the living.
Corn Pop
Member
Scripture says nothing about Mary being ever virgin or queen of heaven.
Mungo
Member
Yes it does. They have both been gone over at great length. You may not agree but there is a lot of supportive scripture for those beliefs
Understanding Mary - Ever Virgin
Understanding Mary - Queen of Heaven
But I don't see the point of going through them all again.
Agreed! So stop going through them over and over again. Sola scriptura.
Corn Pop
Member
I read your article on Mary being ever virgin. She was married?
It says in Matthew 1 she was pregnant before her and Jospesh come together. Notice it says in scripture before they come together, and the angel also said to Jospeh not to be afraid to take her as his wife.
Before they come together. What does that mean if they were married?
And he did not know her until she gave birth to Jesus. What does that mean if they were married?.
Joseph was with Mary in Bethlehem. And was therefor Jesus birth. Did not know her or have relations until Jesus was born?. Until Jesus was born.
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Corn Pop
Member
'Before they come together' and 'did not know her until Jesus was born' makes no sense if they were married, unless it's talking about something else that's no one else's private business. Makes sense because scripture does go on to talk about Jesus brothers.
If they were not married then before they come together and before he knew her would make more of a case of her being ever virgin. Before they got married and had a personal relationship come together in marriage and knew her not until Jesus was born. But even still that don't work.
Trying to convince me they were married to believe she was ever virgin didn't work. It kind of went more the other way.
If they were not married then before they come together and before he knew her would make more of a case of her being ever virgin. Before they got married and had a personal relationship come together in marriage and knew her not until Jesus was born. But even still that don't work.
Trying to convince me they were married to believe she was ever virgin didn't work. It kind of went more the other way.
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Corn Pop
Member
The only way Joseph 'did not know Mary' and 'before they come together' could be if they were not married at the time otherwise it leads to believe it's more private business.
And Jospeh knowing Mary was pregnant and wanting to quietly put away before Gabriel said don't be afraid to keep he as his woman proves he was in some sort of arrangement with her.
And Jospeh knowing Mary was pregnant and wanting to quietly put away before Gabriel said don't be afraid to keep he as his woman proves he was in some sort of arrangement with her.
Corn Pop
Member
So Jospeh is in some sort of arrangement with Mary as only someone who is would want to leave someone when they find out they are pregnant and never been with them thinking they some sort of cheater or something.
Yet Jospeh did not know her and also they had not yet come together until Jesus was born, even Jospeh was in Bethlehem with Mary and at Jesus birth.
If they were married they would have already been together and have come together as one and that scripture would not be there. It don't mean they not virgins, just they would have been married already.
Adam knew Eve. Yada, to know. He had a personal relationship with her and they become one like in marriage. Does not mean they sleep together. They obviously did because she conceived and had a baby, but to know means to have a personal relationship.
.Jesus knows his Bride that is his Church.. They have a personal relationship like Marriage. That's all it means to know someone is to have a close personal relationship with them.
Jospeh did not know Mary until Jesus was born, they did not have a close personal relationship like marriage and become one until Jesus was born.
Yet Jospeh did not know her and also they had not yet come together until Jesus was born, even Jospeh was in Bethlehem with Mary and at Jesus birth.
If they were married they would have already been together and have come together as one and that scripture would not be there. It don't mean they not virgins, just they would have been married already.
Adam knew Eve. Yada, to know. He had a personal relationship with her and they become one like in marriage. Does not mean they sleep together. They obviously did because she conceived and had a baby, but to know means to have a personal relationship.
.Jesus knows his Bride that is his Church.. They have a personal relationship like Marriage. That's all it means to know someone is to have a close personal relationship with them.
Jospeh did not know Mary until Jesus was born, they did not have a close personal relationship like marriage and become one until Jesus was born.
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Corn Pop
Member
How can someone who is married not know there wife and also did not come together with them until a specific time has past yet within that time they was with them in a city and with them when they give birth to a child, but did not know them, and also they not yet come together until after the baby was born, but they together before the baby is born?. Joseph was there with Mary before Jesus popped out. He be there with her supporting her as she give birth to Jesus.
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Mungo
Member
kiwidan
A Jewish marriage takes place in two stages. The first is betrothal (not engagement) called Kiddushin, where contracts are exchanged. After this point the two are legally married. That is why Joseph was called her husband and was going to divorce Mary when she was found to be with child.
"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; 1nd her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly" (Mt 1:18-20)
After that the husband went away to prepare a home for the new wife.
The second stage of marriage, called Nusuin, was when the husband took her into his home and they "came together". After the angel appeared to Joseph he completed Nusuin and took her into his home.
But we believe they never had a sexual relationship.
See: Two Terrible Translations
A Jewish marriage takes place in two stages. The first is betrothal (not engagement) called Kiddushin, where contracts are exchanged. After this point the two are legally married. That is why Joseph was called her husband and was going to divorce Mary when she was found to be with child.
"When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit; 1nd her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly" (Mt 1:18-20)
After that the husband went away to prepare a home for the new wife.
The second stage of marriage, called Nusuin, was when the husband took her into his home and they "came together". After the angel appeared to Joseph he completed Nusuin and took her into his home.
But we believe they never had a sexual relationship.
See: Two Terrible Translations
Since the Bible says that Jesus had brothers, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Mary and Joseph "never had a sexual relationship". That is simply wishful thinking. If you see a family walking down the street together, do you assume that the parents never had sex?
Mungo
Member
That may be your personal opinion but I disagree.
You didn't answer my question: If you see a family walking down the street together, do you assume that the parents never had sex? Or if I say I have brothers and sisters do you assume that my parents never had sex?
The Bible says that Jesus had brothers, yet you assume that Mary and Joseph never had sex. Same illogical reasoning. You wouldn't question whether my siblings were my actual siblings, but that is what you're doing with your (mis) interpretation of the Bible.
Mungo
Member
Do you believe that Jesus was God?
I ask because you seem not to believe it.
No other woman bore God in her womb.
No other woman gave birth to God.
Mary and Joseph's relationship is not to be compared to others. It was unique.
Your comparison trivialises God becoming incarnate.
The first point is that there are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.
Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.
In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.
Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother (adelphos)……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother (adelphos)”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).
According to Dave Armstrong (a Catholic apologist), a Protestant work The Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines adelphos as follows:
Adelphos: denotes a brother, or near kinsmen; in the plural, a community based on identity of origin or life. It is used of:
1. male, children of the same parents….
2. male descendant of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Hebrews 7:5
4. people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Romans 9:3…
5. any man or neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:3;
6. persons united by a common interest, Matthew 5:47
7. persons united by a common calling, Revelation 22:9
8. mankind, Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:17
9. the disciples, and so, by implication, all believers Matthew 28;10, John 20;17
10. believers, apart from sex, Matthew 23:8, Acts 1:15; Romans 1:13; ! Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 19:10 (the word sisters is used of believers only in 1Tim 5:2)
I considered not even replying to your post, as it is insulting.
Of course I believe that Jesus was (actually is) God.
Again, and for the last time: Jesus had brothers! That is what the Bible says. I am not interested in your version of the situation! You can believe whatever myths you want about Mary; your opinions are irrelevant!
I believe the Bible! 100% It is the word of God! Sola Scriptura!!!
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