Question About Mary

[Mungo]

Oh i forget Roman Catholic believed that dead people can Pray. But please don't use Eph 6:19-20 its wrong you are always out of the context.

Peter did not call the Prophets to Pray for Him. What kind of interpretation is that?

We can Pray each other but dead cant.

Those in heaven are very much alive.

 

[Mungo]

"Praying to" is plain English, regardless of how Catholics interpret it. Here is a valid definition: devout petition to God or an object of worship. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Notice it says God or an object of worship. Nowhere in the Bible does it say to pray to anyone but God. Praying to dead people is unScriptural and, to me, very, very strange.

Why are you changing the subject by writing "are you saying that you never sin and indeed are incapable of sinning"? That is a bizarre change of subject. If it's in response to "pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death", that is part of your "Hail Mary" prayer. Since I am in Christ I am regarded as free from sin. If I sin occasionally, that does not make me "a sinner". That idea is more Catholic error! If I am still regarded as "a sinner" then Christ died for nothing.

Here is some Scripture for you to ponder...

"What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life.

For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection. We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (For someone who has died has been freed from sin.)

Romans 6:1-7 NET

Consider the etymology of the word pray:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Etymology Dictionary)

So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.

If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.

Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)

"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)

Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
"Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. " (Acts 24:4 - KJV)

"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health" (Paul in Acts 27:34 - KJV)

The Greek word translated pray here is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo

A different Greek word is used here:
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours," (John 17:9).

The Greek word we translate as pray comes from the Greek erotao which means: ask, query, question.

This is the same word that Jesus uses in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). At one point the rich man (now in hell) says to Abraham "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house" (vs 27). Pray here is eroto.

And here is another one:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? (Acts 8:34)
The Greek word here is deomai (G1189) meaning to beg, petition, beseech, make request

So to summarise so far, to use "pray" for "ask" is scriptural and it is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.

Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: "But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret" (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.

Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
"The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).

The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).

Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.
See https://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix_10_commentary.pdf

I am told that the Perseus Project lists 97 Greek words for "pray".

To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.

 

[Mungo]

Great post! What say you, Mungo?

I say that jaybo will try and ignore my previous post.

 

[jaybo]

Consider the etymology of the word pray:
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Etymology Dictionary)

So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.

If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.

Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)

"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)

Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
"Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. " (Acts 24:4 - KJV)

"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health" (Paul in Acts 27:34 - KJV)

The Greek word translated pray here is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo

A different Greek word is used here:
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours," (John 17:9).

The Greek word we translate as pray comes from the Greek erotao which means: ask, query, question.

This is the same word that Jesus uses in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). At one point the rich man (now in hell) says to Abraham "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house" (vs 27). Pray here is eroto.

And here is another one:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? (Acts 8:34)
The Greek word here is deomai (G1189) meaning to beg, petition, beseech, make request

So to summarise so far, to use "pray" for "ask" is scriptural and it is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.

Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: "But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret" (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.

Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
"The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).

The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).

Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.
See https://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix_10_commentary.pdf

I am told that the Perseus Project lists 97 Greek words for "pray".

To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.

Whatever! You will use any kind of rationale to justify your erroneous beliefs.

Personally, I don't care how Catholics interpret things. They and you don't believe the Bible is the source of God's truth.

 

[Mungo]

Whatever! You will use any kind of rationale to justify your erroneous beliefs.

Personally, I don't care how Catholics interpret things. They and you don't believe the Bible is the source of God's truth.

This is about the meaning of words not just "rationale". Your problem is that you believe that Catholics must use your personal definition of a word. You just can't handle the truth if it varies from your personal opinions.

Catholics do believe the Bible is a source of God's truth, but it's not the only source of God's truth and the Bible doesn't say it is.

 

[jaybo]

This is about the meaning of words not just "rationale". Your problem is that you believe that Catholics must use your personal definition of a word. You just can't handle the truth if it varies from your personal opinions.

Catholics do believe the Bible is a source of God's truth, but it's not the only source of God's truth and the Bible doesn't say it is.

That's exactly your problem. Catholic doctrine is exactly what your clergy dreams up. Believe it if you want. I believe the infallible words of God, not the teachings of your clergy.

 

[Mungo]

That's exactly your problem. Catholic doctrine is exactly what your clergy dreams up. Believe it if you want. I believe the infallible words of God, not the teachings of your clergy.

No it isn't just what our clergy dream up.
Again Sola Scriptura is a false, unbiblical, man invented doctrine and you have not been able to prove any different.

 

[jaybo]

No it isn't just what our clergy dream up.
Again Sola Scriptura is a false, unbiblical, man invented doctrine and you have not been able to prove any different.

Again, simply your (false) opinion.

You believe your clergy; I believe God.

 

[Mungo]

Again, simply your (false) opinion.

You believe your clergy; I believe God.

An opinion backed up by evidence, The evidence is that you cannot prove it from scripture.

 

[jaybo]

An opinion backed up by evidence, The evidence is that you cannot prove it from scripture.

Again, simply your (false) opinion.

You believe your clergy; I believe God.

 

[Mungo]

Again, simply your (false) opinion.

You believe your clergy; I believe God.

It's not a false opinion. It is a fact that you cannot prove Sola Scriptura from scripture. If you could I think you would. But you can't.

 

[jaybo]

It's not a false opinion. It is a fact that you cannot prove Sola Scriptura from scripture. If you could I think you would. But you can't.

Again, you believe your clergy; I believe God.

 

[Mungo]

Again, you believe your clergy; I believe God.

No you don't. Try provindg Sola Scriptura from scripture.

 

[jaybo]

No you don't. Try provindg Sola Scriptura from scripture.

Try proving that the Catholic denomination is scriptural. Or the Pope.

Again, why is Jesus still on the cross in your churches and around your neck? He has been resurrected and at the right hand of God!

 

[Mungo]

Try proving that the Catholic denomination is scriptural. Or the Pope.

Again, why is Jesus still on the cross in your churches and around your neck? He has been resurrected and at the right hand of God!

Try proving Sola Scriptura from scripture

 

[jaybo]

Try proving Sola Scriptura from scripture

You didn't answer these points...

Try proving that the Catholic denomination is scriptural. Or the Pope.

Again, why is Jesus still on the cross in your churches and around your neck? He has been resurrected and at the right hand of God!

 

[Mungo]

You didn't answer these points...

Try proving that the Catholic denomination is scriptural. Or the Pope.

Again, why is Jesus still on the cross in your churches and around your neck? He has been resurrected and at the right hand of God!

I'll address those when you prove Sola Scriptura from scripture.
Stop trying to hide your failure.

 

[Mungo]

jaybo
I'm leaving this now until you prove Sola Scriptura from scripture.

 

[jaybo]

I'll address those when you prove Sola Scriptura from scripture.
Stop trying to hide your failure.

Nice dodge.

Try proving that the Catholic denomination is scriptural. Or the Pope.

Again, why is Jesus still on the cross in your churches and around your neck? He has been resurrected and at the right hand of God!.

Do you understand ad hominem? (Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

Your statement that I'm trying to hide my failure is a prime example. It shows that your argument has no basis in truth.

 

[rstrats]

To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.

There are probably at least a couple hundred prayers to Mary being said around the globe at any given moment. I always wonder how she keeps them all separate in order to make the decisions for any actions she needs to take with regard to each one of them. And of course they just keep coming non-stop 24/7.