electedbyhim
Member
Not looking to label, but wanted to know who you listen to.
I have heard good things about Jordan Peterson, but never listened to him.
Grace and peace to you.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
I have heard good things about Jordan Peterson, but never listened to him.
Grace and peace to you.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I do not doubt you, but your tendency is to label quickly whether you thought about it or not. Better avoid giving you a reason.
electedbyhim
Member
He explains Himself through His written word, there is no extra
Biblical revelation as some might like to think. I am not certain your stance on that.
Proof of nasty names please.
Love is also telling people the truth. In todays world we are haters and do not have tolerance if we tell people they are wrong.
The point was I do not feel sorry for anyone who will not take the time to study the Scripture to see that these things be so. If people just believe a doctrine because that is how they were raised or been taught by their church and will not do the hard work to see the truth. I have no pity for them. That is the problem in this world and Christianity, everyone is lazy.
What is this shield you speak of? I am not a super hero, but a wretched sinner saved by Grace
Proof of verbal abuse. Jesus must have been a verbal abuser when He lashed out at the Pharisees. Was He wrong?
Shall we look in the other thread where you are bashing Calvinists?
Have a nice day!
electedbyhim
Member
Fair enough. I have watched you do the very thing you accuse me of in other threads.
Grace and peace to you.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I already said He explained Himself through His written word to me. What do you think Jesus opened up to them? The written word.
“I tell you the truth, those that claim that they had a hand in salvation and coming to God are the most self-righteous prideful, bosting people I have ever met. Some of your responses reflect this.”
You do not understand in the least the position of those who don’t believe as you do and so you insult and on the same level as Satans sin…serious.
Except you tell people who aren’t wrong, they’re wrong.
I feel love for them, my brethren.
How can I tell you about the shield you don’t see?
Being right doesn’t give you the authority to condemn, but in fact, you’ve been wrong every time.
Being out what evidence you have. As a man thinks so is he is seen in developments that are common in certain types of thinking. When they are expressed again by members of that persuasion, I might point it out.
Uh hmmm.
Dorothy Mae
Member
electedbyhim
Member
The problem is that you are telling everyone in the Calvinist section of this forum that they are wrong and you are right.
You have a handful of Scriptures that you use and still have not proven man can choose God.
You outright tell members here that the Scriptures they post are out of context, or just because the verse pertaining to salvation does not have the word salvation in it, it is wrong. Who does that?
Who have I condemned? Link please
Once again you cannot prove this.
And what is this shield, where is that in the Bible.
I suppose that Scripture and all the Pastor/teachers that I have learned from have this so called shield as well.
This great.
Lets try one last time.
My belief is that man is sinful and spiritually dead and cannot choose salvation, they do not even seek God.
Here are some verses that support this truth.
Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Your turn
If sinful man can choose God for salvation. How can he do it when he is corrupt and spiritually dead.
Please explain and use Biblical verses that show how they can choose God when they are spiritually dead.
Grace and peace to you and have a nice day?
Dorothy Mae
Member
Where did I say that? Where did I tell all the Calvinists they are all wrong about everything and I’m all right about everything?
Moving on..
Anyone who wants to know what the author thought. They aren’t about salvation and don’t mention salvation. You have to force that into the text.
People who read what’s there without adding to the Word.
You judged all who reject Calvinism as prideful.
Moving on….maybe I come back later…
electedbyhim
Member
Just read this whole forum, you have told all us "Calvinists" we are wrong and you are right. You know because you have a greater understand of God then we do.
Lets take this verse
Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
You do not see the word salvation in it, but it has to do with Salvation and Gods election of believers.
How do you not understand this? You claim to understand God better than most people.
I am confused (must be that shield).
Are we not to judge those who claim to be Christians
1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Are you not to judge those who are within the church?
1Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
So you got nothing.
Look, I have no ill will towards anyone, my words are weighty and straight to the point and I am a wretch of a man.
You do not want to believe that man does not have the ability to seek God, contrary to what the Scripture teach. That is your choice and your opinion. I understand that this doctrine, as all of the Doctrines of Grace, goes against mans sinful fleshly thought process and understanding of God. We are corrupt sinners. Or maybe you do not believe that?
Please do not tell others they are wrong and do not understand God, when the Bible clearly teaches this.
Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Grace and peace to you
I gave them to you but you dismiss them out of hand.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Creation doesn't need a savior? It is Jesus death and resurrection that delievers it from the bondage of corruption - hurricanes, earthquakes and whatever.
Right there in your favorite verse. For God so loved the Kosmos. It isn't just men, but the whole universe that He created.
The Bible talks about the mocker.
Everything that God has purposed comes to pass. People sinning is part of God's purpose.
God doesn't have to force anything to happen. Again, that is your "robot theology." God can't ensure something happens without forcing everybody to act against their will.
2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
1Ch 21:1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
1Ch 21:8 So David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing; but now, I pray, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."
God moved David by allowing Satan to temp David to count Israel. David says he sinned greatly. It seems that David freely chose to number Israel.
It is the Calvinist view. You dishonor His character by portraying Him as a weak god who cannot control what happens after He creates. He has to just wish for things to happen that might or might not happen.
This is the Calvinist view:
Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand
Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
You say He sent out His word so that every human being would be saved.
Jesus says: "For many are called, but few are chosen (eklektos)." Mat 22:14
And the last book of the Bible tells us:
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Rev. 5:9)
In other words "have redeemed "all kinds of people."
Again, what was God desire?
It would be on a Sunday. Almost everybody went to Church in those days.
No, that is why John tells us to test the Spirits.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Dorothy Mae
Member
That doesn’t say God loves the trees and rocks (creation.)
That all MEN come to knowledge of the truth and be saved.
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"men", "man" ETC, are used in the Bible often to spiritually symbolize and represent Christians, beasts the unsaved.
A beast, spiritually speaking, is a person who has not been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. "man" on the other hand
spiritually represents someone who has been given a new spirit and mind by God so as to represent a new creature:
a spiritual man, no longer being a "natural man", or a "beast".
[1Co 15:32 KJV] 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
[2Pe 2:12 KJV] 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[Jde 1:10 KJV] 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[Ecc 3:18 KJV] 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
[Ecc 3:19 KJV] 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
I should have included in my prior post that the "men" of the above is actually a representation of Christians not mankind in general.
Yes, and it is true that all men without exception do not come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved.
Again, you have God desiring, wishing for, preferring something that does not come to pass.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do (‛âśâh) all My pleasure (chepets),'
chepets = "pleasure; delight; desire; request."
Chepes can mean not simply what one takes pleasure in or what gives someone delight but one's wish or desire.
‛âśâh = to do, fashion, accomplish, make
Genesis 1:7 So God made (‛âśâh) the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
Genesis 1:16 God made (‛âśâh) two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
So again, who is it that has God accomplishing His desires?
The person who says God desires, wishes for something that never comes to pass
or
The Calvinist who says that God desires the salvation of all kinds of men which Revelation tells us is exactly what happens.
Dorothy Mae
Member
You can drop the dictionary bit. I know very well what the words "do" and "pleasure" mean in more than one language. I do not need a dictionary to tell me as I am very well educated. The dictionary is for those unfamiliar with the language being used.
What you do not see is it is God's pleasure that man loves others, that each man learn to think more about the pleasure and good of others than merely himself, which comes very naturally. That is God's will and is easily supported in scripture. DO you need the verses?
So, God's will/pleasure is that we love Him and other people. For love to be love, there must be at the ability to choose to love or not. Manipulation from outside destroys love. If one says to another, "you had better love me or else something very terrible will happen to you" then we, even the simpliest of us, know that what happens after that cannot be love. It can be good acting, but it is not love as it was forced and not freely given.
So God's will is done in that man has free choice to love or not. Every parent knows what this is like. One gives the child freedom to bear responsibility and rejoices when they freely do their part but endure the times when they fail. But it is best for the child to give them the burden of choice as it will come with the years in any case. So the times when they fail to do as the child himself KNOWS is right are still within the will of parents as freely shouldering responsibility is also their will. What you likely do is remove that clearly expressed will of God, that men and angels are free to choose so that only one will remains, which is actually not seen in the world but nevertheless likely embraced by your side.
Notice this was creation, not the dealings of God with moral beings. What did God do shortly after this? He put two trees in the garden and TOLD THE MAN NOT TO EAT of one of them. If God did not give man the right to free choose, why did He give him the choice in the garden? And what God's will done in reference to not eating of the tree?
I am curious, how many "kinds of men" are there and what are they? Although, come to think of it, it really doesn't matter because all of them are in his desire to be saved, every last kind. So we come to agreement right? God desires all kinds of men to be saved which is what is happening, happened and will happen to future generations, to whomsoever will. All kinds of people includes all people in all times everywhere.
Dorothy Mae
Member
This sort of view towards people who are not Christians, if actually lived out, is pretty scary. I mean, if an atheist went to a doctor or worse, ER, and the person or team who met him to treat him believed the above, they would look at him and then consequently treat him, as though he were an animal, not a man. This view is what people have to adapt in order to treat other people very badly. It was used in the US to support slavery as the people taken from Africa (often sold be their chiefs) were not really people but animals...beasts. It is the mental gymnastics that people impose upon their minds in order to torture other people.
This is certainly not the Bible view of human beings but if one extracts just the right verses isolated from the context, one can make the believer of this into a monster capable of say, burning an opponent at the stake using green wood.
All those whom the Father draws to His Son, the same God teaches them Jn 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And the teaching of them will be successful and so they will hear and learn of Him.
This being taught is a spiritual teaching and its foretold from the prophets Isa 54:13
And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Its Gods Spiritual teaching 1 Cor 2:13
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 9
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And the teaching of them will be successful and so they will hear and learn of Him.
This being taught is a spiritual teaching and its foretold from the prophets Isa 54:13
And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
Its Gods Spiritual teaching 1 Cor 2:13
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 9
That's ridiculous. The Bible was NOT written as a secular-humanistic document to be judged by the criteria of man but God. He is under no edict to modify His intent to satisfy your preferences.
The verses I posted are certainly God's view of the saved and unsaved because they are directly from the Bible, and it cannot contradict itself. Those who are not justified by Christ have no standing before God - all are under a sentence of death: spiritual death. You do them no favor by minimizing or ignoring their dilemma. In fact, it is the great responsibility of those saved to make clear to the unsaved about that exact distinction, not candy coat it. Some (those chosen) will hear and respond, some (those not chosen), will hear and ignore. They who will hear, and they who won't are God's business. Our business however is only to present them with the truth. The verses I posted were taken directly from the Bible and are fully self-explanatory. You deny their clear intent because you'd rather superimpose your own perceptions, rather than accept the truth. In fact, the Bible's message is a stark one of eternal life and eternal death with no niceties or middle ground in between. The Bible speaks for itself:
[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
Anyway, the point of the verses that I posted, which you apparently missed or chose to ignore, is that the words "man" or "men" in that context, pertain only to the elect. So, in the reading of your verse, with that point of view in mind, we can see that the "all men" represents only those who are of the elect but not everyone ever born. By that understanding, we find complete harmony with other verses regarding those to be saved.
Otherwise, had God intended all to become saved, all beyond question, all would become saved.
[Job 23:13 KJV] 13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
[1Co 15:32 KJV] 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
[2Pe 2:12 KJV] 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[Jde 1:10 KJV] 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[Ecc 3:18 KJV] 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
[Ecc 3:19 KJV] 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
[1Ti 2:4 KJV] 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.