jasonc
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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
jasonc
Member
That has been read in my church and taught onChapter 5.4
www.reformation21.org
Iconoclast
Member
Philip Ryken is correct on this
jasonc
Member
She will probably read that with the bias ,see God ordered it
.
Yet won't answer why God simply didn't judge Adam and eve then and there and Satan and all of the evil persons whether man or angel and start over .
I don't quite understand why God let sin go on but he does use or deeds good or bad to show his nature .
journeyman
Member
We act in his mercy now, which is strength. We really need to see that right now, we can never die. We need to see how the enemy is already dead.
stovebolts
Member
And this my friend is how one gets permanently removed from a thread.
If you take issue with my actions, please create a thread in the Talk with the staff forum.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Well, maybe more to the crux of the matter regarding evil and its supposed creation ...
Short story ... evil is not a thing and therefore cannot be created.
Long story ...
Evil is nothing. It is not a thing that has existence. It is an action of something that is a thing. When I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil, but evil then is an activity of some being. It has no being of itself.
Augustine and Thomas Aquinas use the words negation and privation to define evil. Negation talks in terms of what something is not. For example, we say God is infinite which means He is not finite. Evil in this sense can only be defined against the backdrop of what is good. In biblical terms, evil is defined by words like ungodliness, unrighteousness, injustice, so that the term is used as the negation, the opposite of the positive thing that is being affirmed, so that injustice or un-justness can only be understood against the previous concept of justice. Unrighteousness can only be recognized as unrighteousness against the background of righteousness as the standard by which unrighteousness can be recognized and can be defined. Evil is parasitic. It can only survive in a host. I can’t be known in of itself as some independent being, but can only be known and understood against the positive standard. Like a parasite, if the host dies, the parasite dies with it as the parasite (evil) depends on the host for its existence. So, evil can’t be defined or described except against the background of good.
A privation is some sort of lack of or deficiency. This occurs when you don’t get something you need (necessary/essential) as opposed to something you want. WCF Shorter Catechism on “What is sin”: sin is “any want of conformity to or transgression of the law of God.” This is a definition of evil in terms of a lack or privation of a want of conformity to. Righteousness involves conforming to the law of God, doing what God commands. Sin enters in when we fail to do what God commands, and we fail to conform to His standards of what is righteous. On the one hand the catechism says that sin is a want of conformity to, which is a kind of privation, or transgression of the law of God.
Reformers said the sin is a negation or evil is negation, evil is privation, but it is also ‘privatio actuosa’ meaning that though evil is not something that exists in the of itself, it is real, and its effects and its impact are devastating because real beings act out real evil though evil is not independent, nevertheless it is real. R.C. Sproul
Before stating the above, Sproul said a few words on natural evil.
But he didn't expound on it, because I guess it's not real....just a privation.
Lol
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
*yawns*
jasonc
Member
She wants to meet mr.evil I guess ask him why ? Perhaps it's this Mr Ralph person she raves about .
electedbyhim
Member
Many on this forum believe no one is born in or with sin, some also believe humans are not evil.
Gods written word teaches just the opposite if you study hard.
Gods written word teaches just the opposite if you study hard.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
electedbyhim
Re: Your statement "
On the other hand, unbelievers that are hell bound, are responsible for not choosing Christ.
I will never claim to fully understand Salvation, and i have read many Pastors and teachers who cannot fully explain it and many teach the man is responsible for their salvation, but the Lord does it all. For me, it is one of the doctrines of the Bible that my finite mind will never comprehend just like the Trinity and the virgin birth. I take it all on faith."
The answer I would give:
The premise, "responsibility presupposes freedom," is arbitrary, unbiblical, and impossible to prove. Rather, Scripture teaches that responsibility presupposes divine judgment, and divine judgment presupposes God's decision to make this judgment. Therefore, human responsibility presupposes divine sovereignty, not human freedom. We are morally responsible because God is sovereign; only God has “free will”. (Analogy: Jesus cursed a fig tree to death for failing to bear fruit. The tree was not free, or even conscious, but it was punished, and Jesus was justified in doing it.) V.Chueng
Moral responsibility (or accountability) has to do with whether God has decided to judge us; it has no direct relationship with whether we are free. Moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom, but it presupposes divine sovereignty. We are responsible not because we are free from God, but we are responsible precisely because we are not free.
Dictionary definition of responsible: Required to render account; answerable. God doesn't give man the ability to believe salvificly; but God holds him responsible. This is especially apparent with those who have died and never heard of Christ.
Aside: I am sympathic to your thinking though.
Re: Your statement "
On the other hand, unbelievers that are hell bound, are responsible for not choosing Christ.
I will never claim to fully understand Salvation, and i have read many Pastors and teachers who cannot fully explain it and many teach the man is responsible for their salvation, but the Lord does it all. For me, it is one of the doctrines of the Bible that my finite mind will never comprehend just like the Trinity and the virgin birth. I take it all on faith."
The answer I would give:
The premise, "responsibility presupposes freedom," is arbitrary, unbiblical, and impossible to prove. Rather, Scripture teaches that responsibility presupposes divine judgment, and divine judgment presupposes God's decision to make this judgment. Therefore, human responsibility presupposes divine sovereignty, not human freedom. We are morally responsible because God is sovereign; only God has “free will”. (Analogy: Jesus cursed a fig tree to death for failing to bear fruit. The tree was not free, or even conscious, but it was punished, and Jesus was justified in doing it.) V.Chueng
Moral responsibility (or accountability) has to do with whether God has decided to judge us; it has no direct relationship with whether we are free. Moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom, but it presupposes divine sovereignty. We are responsible not because we are free from God, but we are responsible precisely because we are not free.
Dictionary definition of responsible: Required to render account; answerable. God doesn't give man the ability to believe salvificly; but God holds him responsible. This is especially apparent with those who have died and never heard of Christ.
Aside: I am sympathic to your thinking though.
jasonc
Member
Or in My case have seen children sell you drugs and also beaten brutally.
You will never look at children the same .
stovebolts
Member
I enjoyed your whole post.
There is a contrast between evil and darkness within biblical texts. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of what is good.
To say that evil is created is to say that one did not do the good they could have done. But this also has to be kept in its proper perspective in the same way God allows evil for His greater purpose.
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Well, what follows is some logic to substantiate "evil is not a thing"...
Two Aspects of the Problem Source: https://www.str.org/articles/augustine-on-evil
The problem of evil can be phrased in several ways. One approach addresses the origin of evil, prompting the syllogism:
1) God created all things;
2) evil is a thing;
3) therefore, God created evil. If the first two premises are true, the conclusion is inescapable.
This formulation, if sustained, is devastating for Christianity. God would not be good if He knowingly created evil.
Augustine realized that the solution was tied to the question: What is evil? The argument above depends on the idea that evil is a thing (note the second premise). But what if evil is not a "thing" in that sense? Then evil did not need creating. If so, our search for the source of evil will take us in a another direction.
Augustine approached the problem from a different angle. He asked: Do we have any convincing evidence that a good God exists? If independent evidence leads us to conclude that God exists and is good, then He would be incapable of creating evil. Something else, then, must be its source.
If Augustine's approach is fair, it prompts a pair of syllogisms that lead to a different conclusion.
First:
1) All things that God created are good;
2) evil is not good;
3) therefore, evil was not created by God.
Second:
1) God created everything;
2) God did not create evil;
3) therefore, evil is not a thing.
The key to success here, is the truthfulness of two premises. If Augustine can offer evidence through natural theology that God exists as Creator and also that God is good, making everything He created also good, then the conclusion--evil is not a thing--automatically follows.
This is Augustine's strategy. If evil is not a thing, then the case against Christianity stated in the original syllogism is unsound because one of its premises is false. The critical question is: What is evil?
Jethro Bodine
Member
How does all this relate to the OP?
Jethro Bodine
Member
In Calvinism, God withholds the opportunity for most people to be set free from the condemnation for the sin they are destined to commit. And so they have no choice but to remain in that condemnation. Where's the love of God in that if they would choose to believe and be saved if he'd just give them the chance?
stovebolts
Member
Leviticus 23:22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”
God often provides to those in need by those who are obedient to His commandments. In the above case, the farmer has been blessed by his crop because the land has been given by God and God has provided the seed as well as the rain so the crop would grow. We could say more, but to the point of 'What is evil' the above passage illustrates that often, evil is result of our disobedience. Our obedience (light) in this passage feeds the poor who often go without food, or the foreigner who may also be struggling to feed himself or family. Our disobedience (darkness) is the absence of light. In other words, when we fail to be obedient to the commandment, those that are hungry and are unable to feed themselves remain hungry.
What Augustine fails to address is that God can be present in his absence.
How so you may ask? The answer is simple. Exile. Sometimes God does his greatest work in his absence.
stovebolts
Member
Genesis 50:20-21 NKJV
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.Was it good that Jesus died as a sinner on a cross?
Matthew 27:46 ASV
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?