In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Iconoclast]

[If God predestinates EVERYTHING....]

He does not.

HOW is He NOT the author of sin?

God is Holy and cannot be the author of sin. No Calvinist teaches this.

I hope you know that McArthur and Piper both admit that God IS the author of sin,,,

No they do not, so once again you are posting garbage that is not true and in fact is false witness

I am a consistent Calvinist and do not need any of these men to tell me what they think I should be.

POST WHERE THEY SAY IN THEIR OWN WORDS GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN>

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not what I've heard from the pulpit. Man has free will, to an extent, and God is absolutely sovereign;

Of course. This has been my point all along. WHY won't they say what needs to be said from the pulpit?
Because they want as many as possible to warm the pews. If they stated what I post on these threads, who would accept it? But it's put out there, little by little, and they make it sound very acceptable.

When you hear some words, they are key to some doctrine or other.
For example SOVEREIGN,,,this is one of them.
Sovereign = God predestined everything from the beginning of the world. He plans all including who will be saved and who will be lost or reprobate.

the two are held in tension as a mystery, which I think more Christians would do well to do.

There is no tension between free will and God's sovereignty - only in the reformed tradition do they speak of this tension.

God is TRULY sovereign. He does not need to fear man having free will.
It's almost like the reformed feel that maybe God is a God of fearing that man should have free will.
God made us in His image. He is free and He made us to be free. Why give Adam a command to not eat of the fruit IF it was God's will that Adam sin? It was God's will because, remember, HE planned everything ahead of time. Including sin. See my post no. 144
God gave Adam the command because Adam could choose to make the moral decision to obey or disobey.
Same as we have today.

God is happy to allow us to have free will.
God is happy that we love Him out of our own free will and not because He predestinated us to...
like robots.

I think the issue of free will is much more complicated, especially as a student of behavioural science, I understand that there is much more going on in how we make decisions than we realize.

It's very complicated but only in philosophy, not in biblical terms.
Philosophically, man's will is limited.
I cannot will myself to fly.

Just searched and found this video/transcript by R.C. Sproul: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/chosen-by-god/what-is-free-will

Will watch when I log off. I've seen a lot of stuff by RC. I like him.
He said that when he started out it was difficult for him to accept such conflicting teachings.
But he was under the wing of his reformed mentor, so that's where he ended up.
It's in one of the books he wrote...I can't remember which one but I'm sure it could be found.

'Calvin, in examining the question of free will, says that if we mean by free will that fallen man has the ability to choose what he wants, then of course fallen man has free will. But if we mean by that term that man in his fallen state has the moral power and ability to choose righteousness, then, said Calvin, “free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to fallen man.” And with that sentiment I would agree.'

But the NT tells us that we can choose to become saved.
Where does it state that we cannot?

How to become saved:

Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
And, we can choose to obey God or not obey God, after we are saved:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.


I don't know of any scripture that states we cannot choose to believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

He does not.

God is Holy and cannot be the author of sin. No Calvinist teaches this.

POST WHERE THEY SAY IN THEIR OWN WORDS GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN>

I'd like to speak to calvinists.

If you're not one, I'd rather not speak to you.

It sounds like you don't know where you are in Christianity.
It's not my place to teach you what you THINK you believe.

See my post no. 144 for what calvinists believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'd like to speak to calvinists.

If you're not one, I'd rather not speak to you.

It sounds like you don't know where you are in Christianity.
It's not my place to teach you what you THINK you believe.

See my post no. 144 for what calvinists believe.

You do not know what Calvinists believe at all.
You think you are attacking, but it is a series of strawmen.
To say John Mac says God is the author of sin is ludicrous.
No Reformed confession says any such nonsense.

 

[Iconoclast]

Are you going to follow the bible,
or are you going to follow John Calvin ?
Or the Baptist CF from 1689?

Make up your mind.

I quoted two bible verses, not Calvin.
No one has quoted calvin but you.
You are just set to resist. You can remain ignorant of truth...does not affect me one bit.

 

[Iconoclast]

The other member will never accept ANY explanation of free will.
I tried for a few pages. Just give up right now and continue on....

Biblically speaking (not philosophically as he would like)
free will simply means having the ability to choose between two moral options.
That's it. That's all it means.

free will does not exist, so therefore it is not in thebible.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: wondering statement: I hope you know that McArthur and Piper both admit that God IS the author of sin,,,

POST WHERE THEY SAY IN THEIR OWN WORDS GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN>

You do not know what Calvinists believe at all.
You think you are attacking, but it is a series of strawmen.
To say John Mac says God is the author of sin is ludicrous.

A year or so back wondering made some far fetched claim about R.C.Sproul and I called on it. She may have even said Sproul claimed God was the author of sin too, though I don't recall the specifics; but it was ludicrous enough for me to know he didn't say what she claimed. She mentioned some book and I said something like "where in the book". I pressed the matter for several posts. She never backed up her claimed though I asked repeatedly. I put her on IGNORE. My guess is she won't back up her claim again. It's not like one can go through the millions of words spoken and written by these guys to prove her wrong. Good luck getting to back up her claim.
Aside: There are a few (a definite minority) Reformed people that claim God is the author of sin. Sproul did not, he was a compatibilist who admitted he could not give a sound theodicy and could not find anyone that could.

Let's search the internet to investigate her claim ...
John MacArthur ... https://heritagendestiny.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/doctrine-of-the-day-john-macarthur-on-theodicy/
"God wills evil to exist. He has allowed evil and sin within His sovereign purposes so that His holiness and grace might be put on display." Note the word "allowed", this is word compatibilists use do distance GOD from being the author of sin.
John MacArthur ... http://theviewfrommychair.blogspot.com/2009/03/shepherds-conference-session-9-john.html
... in this article MacArthur says directly ... "

Truths that have to be acknowledged in addressing this issue; .... [then MacArthur lists the truths]
God has a purpose for evil

1. The Westminster Confession states
   1. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass
   2. God is not the author of sin
   3. Everything happens to the praise of His glory

_________________________________​

John Piper .... https://atheologyintension.com/2013/08/01/a-critique-of-john-pipers-theodicy/​

“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing… It would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.” But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”​

Note: sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission. "God's permission", like MacArthur's "allowed" are terms used by compatibilists to distance God from accusations of being 'the author of sin'.

I don't know her motive for misrepresent these people save to try to discredit a theology she detests. Hopefully, it an honest mistake. Again, she did something similar with accusations against Sproul. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe these guys made statements the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN in the past and rescinded them, though I doubt it.

Aside: Like the term "free will", the term "author of sin" is rarely defined ... so maybe that is what is going on.
Aside2: *sigh*

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: wondering statement: I hope you know that McArthur and Piper both admit that God IS the author of sin,,,



A year or so back wondering made some far fetched claim about R.C.Sproul and I called on it. She may have even said Sproul claimed God was the author of sin too, though I don't recall the specifics; but it was ludicrous enough for me to know he didn't say what she claimed. She mentioned some book and I said something like "where in the book". I pressed the matter for several posts. She never backed up her claimed though I asked repeatedly. I put her on IGNORE. My guess is she won't back up her claim again. It's not like one can go through the millions of words spoken and written by these guys to prove her wrong. Good luck getting to back up her claim.
Aside: There are a few (a definite minority) Reformed people that claim God is the author of sin. Sproul did not, he was a compatibilist who admitted he could not give a sound theodicy and could not find anyone that could.

Let's search the internet to investigate her claim ...
John MacArthur ... https://heritagendestiny.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/doctrine-of-the-day-john-macarthur-on-theodicy/
"God wills evil to exist. He has allowed evil and sin within His sovereign purposes so that His holiness and grace might be put on display." Note the word "allowed", this is word compatibilists use do distance GOD from being the author of sin.
John MacArthur ... http://theviewfrommychair.blogspot.com/2009/03/shepherds-conference-session-9-john.html
... in this article MacArthur says directly ... "

Truths that have to be acknowledged in addressing this issue; .... [then MacArthur lists the truths]
God has a purpose for evil

1. The Westminster Confession states
   1. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass
   2. God is not the author of sin
   3. Everything happens to the praise of His glory

_________________________________​

John Piper .... https://atheologyintension.com/2013/08/01/a-critique-of-john-pipers-theodicy/​

“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing… It would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.” But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”​

Note: sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission. "God's permission", like MacArthur's "allowed" are terms used by compatibilists to distance God from accusations of being 'the author of sin'.

I don't know her motive for misrepresent these people save to try to discredit a theology she detests. Hopefully, it an honest mistake. Again, she did something similar with accusations against Sproul. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe these guys made statements the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN in the past and rescinded them, though I doubt it.

Aside: Like the term "free will", the term "author of sin" is rarely defined ... so maybe that is what is going on.
Aside2: *sigh*

This is for
Fastfredy0
Iconoclast
electedbyhim


Wondering doesn't make far fetched claims.
Wondering only posts what she knows to be absolutely correct.
It's not my job to explain calvinism to a calvinist.
It's not my responsibility if you want to accept ONLY what you like about calvinism and discard what you don't like.
It's not my responsibility to explain scripture to you that is written IN PLAIN ENGLISH and which a 6 year old can understand - as long as he has not been indoctrinated by calvinist ideology.

If you don't think MaCarthur or Piper or Sproul said the things I say the did...that's is up to you to either accept or not accept. I'm very willing to support what I believe scripturally. I'm not willing to have to support every sentence I post because you guys don't know your own theologians.

Here's what you asked for, and it'll be the last time.
I have posted this before - yes, FF, even a year ago.
I know it's difficult to listen to - but make an effort and try to remember it
and quit telling me
1. I'm not an honest person.
2. I don't understand calvinism.

The following is humerous.
Piper doesn't want whimpy Christians because they won't be able to withstand the EVIL GOD HAS CREATED.
Not to speak of sin. Funny stuff.

I love this: God ordains sin....but He is not sinful.
What sense does that make?
Is God complete chaos?

 

[GodsGrace]

He does not.

God is Holy and cannot be the author of sin. No Calvinist teaches this.

POST WHERE THEY SAY IN THEIR OWN WORDS GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN>

You don't think calvinism teaches that God predestines everything?
Did you read my post no. 144?

Are you living in your own calvinist fantasy world?

This is really getting tiring.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do not know what Calvinists believe at all.
You think you are attacking, but it is a series of strawmen.
To say John Mac says God is the author of sin is ludicrous.
No Reformed confession says any such nonsense.

Have you seen my post no. 144?
Do you need more?
John Calvin wrote 4 books on this.
All the confessions agree with each other.
I have the WCF.

OR,
maybe YOU could read through this stuff and learn what calvinism is all about
so you could stop living in your fantasy world and accept the reality of it.
John Piper doesn't want you to be a wishy washy Christian.
Hard times are coming - which God predestinated BTW - and he wants you to be strong and ready.
Do you think your pastor feels differently?

 

[GodsGrace]

I quoted two bible verses, not Calvin.
No one has quoted calvin but you.
You are just set to resist. You can remain ignorant of truth...does not affect me one bit.

I'm not ignorant of the truth.
But someone is.

BTW, Calvin taught Calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

free will does not exist, so therefore it is not in thebible.

I guess if you say so, that must be true.

But what could you post that shows, as support, that there is no free will in the bible.
It would be interesting to see.

 

[jasonc]

Then wondering has to wonder why God permitted evil and didn't stop it by judging eve and Adam and starting over .

Instead he permitted it for a reason.any difference then God using evil to show mercy ?

Nope

 

[jasonc]

Wcf which version there are several nine is the the oldest one .

 

[GodsGrace]

Wcf which version there are several nine is the the oldest one .

What difference does it make?

 

[GodsGrace]

Then wondering has to wonder why God permitted evil and didn't stop it by judging eve and Adam and starting over .

Instead he permitted it for a reason.any difference then God using evil to show mercy ?

Nope

God needs evil to show mercy?
What an unsovereign God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Re: wondering statement: I hope you know that McArthur and Piper both admit that God IS the author of sin,,,



A year or so back wondering made some far fetched claim about R.C.Sproul and I called on it. She may have even said Sproul claimed God was the author of sin too, though I don't recall the specifics; but it was ludicrous enough for me to know he didn't say what she claimed. She mentioned some book and I said something like "where in the book". I pressed the matter for several posts. She never backed up her claimed though I asked repeatedly. I put her on IGNORE. My guess is she won't back up her claim again. It's not like one can go through the millions of words spoken and written by these guys to prove her wrong. Good luck getting to back up her claim.
Aside: There are a few (a definite minority) Reformed people that claim God is the author of sin. Sproul did not, he was a compatibilist who admitted he could not give a sound theodicy and could not find anyone that could.

Let's search the internet to investigate her claim ...
John MacArthur ... https://heritagendestiny.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/doctrine-of-the-day-john-macarthur-on-theodicy/
"God wills evil to exist. He has allowed evil and sin within His sovereign purposes so that His holiness and grace might be put on display." Note the word "allowed", this is word compatibilists use do distance GOD from being the author of sin.
John MacArthur ... http://theviewfrommychair.blogspot.com/2009/03/shepherds-conference-session-9-john.html
... in this article MacArthur says directly ... "

Truths that have to be acknowledged in addressing this issue; .... [then MacArthur lists the truths]
God has a purpose for evil

1. The Westminster Confession states
   1. God ordains whatsoever comes to pass
   2. God is not the author of sin
   3. Everything happens to the praise of His glory

_________________________________​

John Piper .... https://atheologyintension.com/2013/08/01/a-critique-of-john-pipers-theodicy/​

“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing… It would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.” But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”​

Note: sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission. "God's permission", like MacArthur's "allowed" are terms used by compatibilists to distance God from accusations of being 'the author of sin'.

I don't know her motive for misrepresent these people save to try to discredit a theology she detests. Hopefully, it an honest mistake. Again, she did something similar with accusations against Sproul. Coincidence, maybe. Maybe these guys made statements the GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN in the past and rescinded them, though I doubt it.

Aside: Like the term "free will", the term "author of sin" is rarely defined ... so maybe that is what is going on.
Aside2: *sigh*

Thank you brother,
Thankfully God is in control. Sadly many lie against the truth. I have had supposed Christian moderators invent posts saying I posted them, lol
Another thing. Being they oppose truth, I have found when they quote a reformed person:
1]either they do not understand what they quote

2] or it is quoted out of context.

3] they change the wording in a quote, moving the goalposts.

4] they try and conflate all the meanings....predestine, foreknow, ordain, determinate counsel...then they blame God for man's sin. It is deliberate, it is dishonest.

On a positive note. Many have not heard the truth presented accurately, if at all.
I have seen several come to truth by simply removing obstacles and offering scriptures that if they consider them, are made effectual by the Spirit.
Here is a site I am developing, that I am trying to make a solid resource, unedited, uncensored;

Home | Bibleinteraction

Visit our forum at: bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

 

[Iconoclast]

I guess if you say so, that must be true.

But what could you post that shows, as support, that there is no free will in the bible.
It would be interesting to see.

I do not have to prove something that does not exist, like ufo"s.
I see now you just try and disrupt truth, and twist wording.I will expose each time you do it.
Little subtle changes in wording to avoid direct answers to questions.
Mixing the wording is hiding and obscuring truth. Why do you do that?

 

[jasonc]

What difference does it make?

Because changes and old English which is confusing.

Case in point .

The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force .

It's better said the kingdom advances by force and pressing on.

 

[jasonc]

God needs evil to show mercy?
What an unsovereign God.

In short simply can't didn't foreknow that evil would come and decide to end it .he was too weak.


Romans 8 :28

According to you evil sinply can't be used by God who is mutable he has to wait for you to decide .