In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Fastfredy0]

What Augustine fails to address is that God can be present in his absence.
How so you may ask? The answer is simple. Exile. Sometimes God does his greatest work in his absence.

You would have to define your terms. I define an attribute of God as being omnipresent and therefore never absent.

Dictionary definition of ABSENT: not present at a usual or expected place https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absent

I don't see how God does work when He is not there. What is the power doing this work? God is all powerful

Colossians 1:16-17, what other power are you proposing that is doings something?​

 

[stovebolts]

You would have to define your terms. I define an attribute of God as being omnipresent and therefore never absent.

You may enjoy Samuel Lucien Terrien's theology 'Presence in Absence' .
He starts,

"Verily, verily, thou art a God that hidest theyself (Isa 45:15)
their complaint amounted in effect to a confession of faith. To be aware of a divine hiddenness is to remember a presence and to yearn for its return. the presence of an absence denies its negativity."

Terrien continues,
The poet who composed Psalm 22 was a theologian of dereliction. His cry, "My God, my god, why hast thou forsaken me?", has been echoed by legions who have been tormented by cosmic solitude. In a sense, the psalmists showed that he had been a poet of cultic presence, but he ignored the myth of holy space. He substituted for the category of the sanctuary the living reality of the act of praise offered by the whole community - past, present and future - of the people of God.

I don't see how God does work when He is not there. What is the power doing this work? God is all powerful

Colossians 1:16-17, what other power are you proposing that is doings something?​

Exile

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Genesis 50:20-21 NKJV​

But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Was it good that Jesus died as a sinner on a cross?
Matthew 27:46 ASV

I'm a logical person, but I'm also very practical, and so I have never seen any practical value in determining if God made evil. In regard to Calvinism I can only see practical value in understanding evil insofar as whether or not it is evil that God would not let people believe and be saved who would otherwise believe and be saved if he would just let them.

I look at this way. There are two possibilities here. Either God is evil for not offering salvation to people who would receive it if he would just offer it to them. Or, he withholds the offer of salvation to people who he knows will simply not receive it.

Obviously, the first option is off the table. God is simply not evil. End of story. So the second option has to be true. The people he ultimately withholds the opportunity from to believe and be saved are those who reject the offer and who he knows will continue to reject the offer. I do not believe that God lets people be damned who he knows have the potential to not be damned if he'd just extend his mercy and grace to them. Calvinism apparently believes he would let them be damned. That's out of character for God. He is not evil. He uses evil. He allows evil. But he is not evil. Calvinism assign the attribute of wickedness to God that he surely does not have.

17Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do, yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.
James 4:17

 

[hawkman]

Many on this forum believe no one is born in or with sin, some also believe humans are not evil.

Gods written word teaches just the opposite if you study hard.

Are we born with sin , no we are not . Are we born into a world with sin all around us from the instance we are born, yes !
We have freewill so we will fall into sin as we grow up . A product of our sinful culture and a fallen world.
No baby is born with sin .

 

[stovebolts]

17Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do, yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.
James 4:17

Amen

 

[jasonc]

One can argue that .
Knowing man will EPically fail God .why does God then not tell the world directly .there are nations and people in America that die never going to church

How many actually go to the arab in their local mosque and tell them in Arabic ?

My county has a substantial muslim community .we have a mosque in sebestian and a prayer room a mile from Mt church .

If God wants them in the past and present then he would have told them plainly .

He has .in the past he let the nations forget him and only choose Abraham .

The Scythians and others hand their religion or Hittites .these died by large not knowing .though one did come .

The Hittite go back to before the Egyptians captivity .they were slaves traders .

There's much that we don't know .was it God letting them ? Or he knew they would reject .I simply don't worry about this .I was told .I know what I must do

 

[jaybo]

Are we born with sin , no we are not . Are we born into a world with sin all around us from the instance we are born, yes !
We have freewill so we will fall into sin as we grow up . A product of our sinful culture and a fallen world.
No baby is born with sin .

That is not what the Bible says.

Romans 5:12-21, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— for sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam, who is a pattern of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. And the gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. But law came in, so that the trespass might increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so grace might also reign through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

This clearly shows that sin is inherited by all through Adam.. There is no person who is born sinless (with one obvious exception!).

 

[stovebolts]

The people he ultimately withholds the opportunity from to believe and be saved are those who reject the offer and who he knows will continue to reject the offer.

My understanding is this.
In the Exodus story, Pharaoh shows a repentant heart multiple times to Moses, yet he fails to act on it. As a result, they are simply feelings with no fruits to show. After multiple “feelings” prompting Pharaoh to act without result, Pharaoh himself hardens his heart to those “ feelings” and becomes unmovable ( of Gods prompting ).

It is at this point God hardens Pharaoh's heart and justice for the people who cried out under Pharoahs oppression is served.

In this same way, we understand that the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever of his sin to bring about not only a contrite heart, but to bear fruits of repentance as well. It is not well advised to harden one’s heart against God.

Would we then say that God hardening an already hardened heart is evil? I would think it as an act of mercy / judgement.

So yes, I am in full agreement with you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is not what the Bible says.

Romans 5:12-21, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— for sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam, who is a pattern of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. And the gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. But law came in, so that the trespass might increase, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so grace might also reign through justification leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

This clearly shows that sin is inherited by all through Adam.. There is no person who is born sinless (with one obvious exception!).

Note vs. 12..."BECAUSE all have sinned."

You aren't guilty of sin until you sin. And furthermore, sin with accountability.

 

[hawkman]

This clearly shows that sin is inherited by all through Adam..

By inherited do you mean genetics ? Explain .

There is no person who is born sinless (with one obvious exception!).

Was Jesus's mother Mary born of a union of a mother and a father ?

 

[jaybo]

By inherited do you mean genetics ? Explain .

Was Jesus's mother Mary born of a union of a mother and a father ?

Sin is inherited from Adam. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" Romans 5:12 Personally, I don't think it's through genetics, but through our spirit.

Yes, Mary was born "of a union", i.e., sexual intercourse, between a man and a woman.

 

[hawkman]

Sin is inherited from Adam. "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned" Romans 5:12 Personally, I don't think it's through genetics, but through our spirit.

Yes, Mary was born "of a union", i.e., sexual intercourse, between a man and a woman.

Where did Adam's spirit come from ? Where did Mary's spirit come from ? Where did your spirit come from ?

 

[jaybo]

Where did Adam's spirit come from ? Where did Mary's spirit come from ? Where did your spirit come from ?

a) I don't know. b) I don't know. c) From God.

 

[electedbyHim]

Are we born with sin , no we are not . Are we born into a world with sin all around us from the instance we are born, yes !
We have freewill so we will fall into sin as we grow up . A product of our sinful culture and a fallen world.
No baby is born with sin .

Not what Scripture teaches.

David was probably wrong when he wrote Psalm 51. Especially the parts where he states the Lords sovereignty over his life.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

I understand that pride blinds people and they want to believe how good they are.

 

[jasonc]

I believe we are born to sin without the knowledge of what sin is.

Of the opposite was true then there would be no children born to homes that add faithful to God that have kids that fall away.ie spurgeons oldest son dying young living in sin .died s drunkard and despite raised right .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Are we born with sin , no we are not . Are we born into a world with sin all around us from the instance we are born, yes !
We have freewill so we will fall into sin as we grow up . A product of our sinful culture and a fallen world.
No baby is born with sin .

As usual no scripture is offered to backup your claim. I think many of you people have your own idea of what God is and then make up doctrine to go with unfounded ideas.

Psalms 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
John 14:4, John 3:6 (not as explicitly obvious.

Your theology of FREE WILL is a farce. There is no verse in the bible saying man has free will save FREE WILL offerings which is irrelevant. Few proponents can even give a definition.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not what Scripture teaches.

David was probably wrong when he wrote Psalm 51. Especially the parts where he states the Lords sovereignty over his life.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

I understand that pride blinds people and they want to believe how good they are.

Well, at least the reformed people know the bible.... didn't see this post till after I posted.

 

[electedbyHim]

As usual no scripture is offered to backup your claim. I think many of you people have your own idea of what God is and then make up doctrine to go with unfounded ideas.

Psalms 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
John 14:4, John 3:6 (not as explicitly obvious.

Your theology of FREE WILL is a farce. There is no verse in the bible saying man has free will save FREE WILL offerings which is irrelevant. Few proponents can even give a definition.

Indeed.

 

[hawkman]

Not what Scripture teaches.

David was probably wrong when he wrote Psalm 51. Especially the parts where he states the Lords sovereignty over his life.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

I understand that pride blinds people and they want to believe how good they are.

Why did David say what he did in Psalm 51 and what did he mean by it ? It is does not support "sin nature" . I read this article at this link I am going to give you . I read the article for the first time out loud to my wife and as I read it the Holy Spirit let me know it was the truth .
Read the article out loud and see what happens .

Nitzevet, Mother of David The bold voice of silence

 

[hawkman]

As usual no scripture is offered to backup your claim. I think many of you people have your own idea of what God is and then make up doctrine to go with unfounded ideas.

Psalms 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
John 14:4, John 3:6 (not as explicitly obvious.

Your theology of FREE WILL is a farce. There is no verse in the bible saying man has free will save FREE WILL offerings which is irrelevant. Few proponents can even give a definition.

You offer scripture but it does not back-up your claim of "sin nature" .

A new born baby in the crib , where is the sin located in that child ? Is it a genetic problem ?

Let's concentrate on "sin nature" and not freewill for the time being . Don't want to derail the thread .