Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Fastfredy0]

No comment.
I like serious conversations.

And my point was that you're in the THEOLOGY FORUM.
I wasn't arguing with you as to what YOU personally can use at home.

************************************************************************

It's required to use the bible in the Theology Forum, especially when asked for scripture.
Please state book, chapter and verse.
Thanks.

That's my point. Your anti-reformed theology of Free Will is not found in the bible and therefore you can't give scripture and verse.
So, you can say you used your FREE WILL and decided to be depraved but your won't find it in scripture. Scripture seldomly points out various imaginations of man are false .... the Bible would be 100 miles thick (assuming 12 pt. font) if that was the case where my guess of 100 miles thick is not affirmed in the bible.

The best you can do is exploit implicit verses like: Joshua 24:15 ...
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,
you inappropriately insert your free will theology into such verses by assuming one is free of God causing your desire to choose and assume it must be the will of mind unaffected by God.

When it comes to choosing God in regards to salvation God clearly says it is His Will that determines whether you are saved or not. Man's will is clearly said to not be the cause.
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God [salvation], that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Free Will is man's boasting to God that man is the cause of his own salvation. Free Will falsely believes Christ make salvation possible for all and that man is sovereign over God as to whether he is saved or not. This contradicts God word:
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him?
Isaiah 42:8b My glory I will not give to another

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect. Free Willies would respond to what hast thou that thou didst not receive? .. with, MY FAITH LORD... I saved myself. You owe me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again...God can only be just at all times, local and temporary, or eternally. Always just, Always Holy.

OK.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's my point. Your anti-reformed theology of Free Will is not found in the bible and therefore you can't give scripture and verse.
So, you can say you used your FREE WILL and decided to be depraved but your won't find it in scripture. Scripture seldomly points out various imaginations of man are false .... the Bible would be 100 miles thick (assuming 12 pt. font) if that was the case where my guess of 100 miles thick is not affirmed in the bible.

The best you can do is exploit implicit verses like: Joshua 24:15 ...
then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,
you inappropriately insert your free will theology into such verses by assuming one is free of God causing your desire to choose and assume it must be the will of mind unaffected by God.

When it comes to choosing God in regards to salvation God clearly says it is His Will that determines whether you are saved or not. Man's will is clearly said to not be the cause.
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God [salvation], that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Free Will is man's boasting to God that man is the cause of his own salvation. Free Will falsely believes Christ make salvation possible for all and that man is sovereign over God as to whether he is saved or not. This contradicts God word:
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him?
Isaiah 42:8b My glory I will not give to another

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for those elect. Free Willies would respond to what hast thou that thou didst not receive? .. with, MY FAITH LORD... I saved myself. You owe me.

I don't think I ever mentioned free will.
And I know that it's anti-reformed...
but it's not anti-Christian.

I might start a thread on this.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God is Holy and Just at all times. I did answer this.

Agreed. God is holy and just be definition. God defines holy and just. Free willies define holy and just and tell others that God is obligated to be within the bounds of their definition which is used to support their unbiblical theology which is not to say all their theology is unbiblical.
To be unrighteous, God must have a commandment that applies to Him and the break that commandment. He is sovereign and creates laws but is not subject to laws. To have a law that God must obey is to have a power higher than God and then that power is God. God essence is the law.

 

[atpollard]

One of the problems I find to be true with the reformed faith, of which you are if I remember,
is that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.

We must ASSUME that it is "arbitrary" because it appears arbitrary to us. [As an aside, that is no less true for Free Will, since the same WORD OF GOD is spoken by the same preacher at the same time and place and heard by two people - both sinners in need of grace - yet one will respond and the other will not ... or both will respond ... or neither will respond ... all completely "arbitrary" ;) ]

It is equally possible that GOD HAS A REASON ... and we are ignorant of yet another aspect of God.
What Particular Baptists (like me) affirm is that the reason is NOT because I was

• better
• smarter
• more deserving

than those that REMAIN damned. (It is often overlooked that everyone is actually "GUILTY" and has earned Damnation on our own merits.)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Why God chooses some and not others

God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. [Ephesians 1:5 NLT]

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [Ephesians 1:5 NKJV]

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Ephesians 1:5 NIV]

First off I would state that there is no WHY when it comes to God doing X or Y. For there to be a WHY is to suggest there is a cause. There is no power that causes God to do anything for then He would be an effect of some greater cause. Whatever God does is because of who/what He is. What ever He does is internal to Himself, it is His essence that is the CAUSE, the WHY.

Aside: When God asked a similar question in scripture He does not answer directly.
See Job chapters 38-40 and Romans 9:18-23 (basically God says..... who da heck are you (pond scum ... fastfredy0 translation) to have the effrontery to pose that question to Me.)

 

[atpollard]

The problem, as I see it is
1. A person cannot know how to become saved - this does not seem just to those outside of reformed theology.
2. A God that is just would not choose this method - which is choosing some for salvation and some for damnation.

1. It does not seem "just" to me either. Frankly, all of the people that died before hearing the Gospel (North America pre 1500) seem to have been "short changed". My ancestors living in Pagan Northern Europe with no access to either Torah or Gospel until the Middle Ages also seem "unjustly treated". As my father once said: "Who told you life was fair?"
   1. The traditional "Reformed" response is "everyone is a sinner and "Justice" is everyone condemned to hell.
   2. Free Will or Sovereign Grace ... I think MERCY is the operating principle in salvation rather than justice.
2. Technically, God chooses NOBODY for damnation ... God doesn't need to. Remember the scene in Revelation ... it is those whose name is written in the Book that are taken into Heaven. Everyone else faces judgement and condemnation for THEIR SINS (not God's malice). Remember that John 3 includes both verse 16 and verse 18.
   • [Jhn 3:16 NLT] 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
   • [Jhn 3:18 NLT] 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son.

 

[atpollard]

Re: Why God chooses some and not others

First off I would state that there is no WHY when it comes to God doing X or Y. For there to be a WHY is to suggest there is a cause. There is no power that causes God to do anything for then He would be an effect of some greater cause. Whatever God does is because of who/what He is. What ever He does is internal to Himself, it is His essence that is the CAUSE, the WHY.

Aside: When God asked a similar question in scripture He does not answer directly.
See Job chapters 38-40 and Romans 9:18-23 (basically God says..... who da heck are you (pond scum ... fastfredy0 translation) to have the effrontery to pose that question to Me.)

... but God DID tell us that it was "according to the good pleasure of His will".
God saved who He wanted because He wanted to save them. (a bit "circular reasoning" ... but He is God and we are not!)

[You can ask Him to explain when we see Him if you REALLY need to know. ]

 

[Fastfredy0]

One of the problems I find to be true with the reformed faith, of which you are if I remember,
is that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.

One of the problems I find with the 'free willism' faith is that one man's 'free willism' arbitrarily overrides the 'free willism' of other men.

Empirical example:
I murder someone who otherwise would be saved in the future ... or Hitler kills millions, many of which given the chance would have turned to God via there "free willism". It seems that one person's "free will" can override the "free will" of another. So a "free will" proponent is perfectly OK with the ability of one man's ability to determine another man's eternal destiny, but not allowing God to do the same. Yet God let's it happen and thus determines that you do not have "free will".

Empirical example 2:
There is an abundance of observation showing the affinity of children to have the religious faith of their parents. It therefore is undeniable that the "free willism faith" of the parents has interfered with the "free willism faith" of the children. But wait folks, there's more. Who interfered with the "free willism faith" of the parents? You guessed it, their parents. Thus, the "free willism faith" is proven false.

 

[GodsGrace]

We must ASSUME that it is "arbitrary" because it appears arbitrary to us. [As an aside, that is no less true for Free Will, since the same WORD OF GOD is spoken by the same preacher at the same time and place and heard by two people - both sinners in need of grace - yet one will respond and the other will not ... or both will respond ... or neither will respond ... all completely "arbitrary" ;) ]

It does seem to me that the subject matter is of such great importance that PERHAPS God would make us know how to be saved - as He certainly does in the NT.
In Acts 16:31 the jailer asks how to be saved and he's told to believe in Jesus and he would be saved.
Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
John 3:16 states that all those who believe will be saved. WHOSOEVER believes, which is slightly different.

One person might accept and not the other.
Only the actual person will know why...this we really can't know.
Free will is the same. I just started a thread on this BTW. Interesting debate on Unbelievable on YouTube.
Of course we think we have it,,,but what's the reality?
I believe we do because choice denotes free will.

It is equally possible that GOD HAS A REASON ... and we are ignorant of yet another aspect of God.
What Particular Baptists (like me) affirm is that the reason is NOT because I was

• better
• smarter
• more deserving

than those that REMAIN damned. (It is often overlooked that everyone is actually "GUILTY" and has earned Damnation on our own merits.)

I respect that you made your list of why you do NOT believe.
I've come across such persons and it's very difficult to have a decent conversation with them.

I understand that we're all guilty and God can do as He wishes.
Far be it for man to stop Him.

Could we get passed that and could you explain something to me that no one has been able to?

How can God be a just God --- John Calvin states that all men are NOT created on equal terms.
Book 3 Chapter 21 Paragraph 8

Doesn't the NT affirm that God is IMPARTIAL ? Doesn't this conflict attest to the fact that Calvin was wrong?
Acts 10:34-35
Romans 2:11

Calvin states that it's not right to call God unjust.
Leviticus 19:15
“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

So if God expects man to be just, shouldn't God also be just?
Is it just to not give to everyone the same opportunity to be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the problems I find with the 'free willism' faith is that one man's 'free willism' arbitrarily overrides the 'free willism' of other men.

Empirical example:
I murder someone who otherwise would be saved in the future ... or Hitler kills millions, many of which given the chance would have turned to God via there "free willism". It seems that one person's "free will" can override the "free will" of another. So a "free will" proponent is perfectly OK with the ability of one man's ability to determine another man's eternal destiny, but not allowing God to do the same. Yet God let's it happen and thus determines that you do not have "free will".

Empirical example 2:
There is an abundance of observation showing the affinity of children to have the religious faith of their parents. It therefore is undeniable that the "free willism faith" of the parents has interfered with the "free willism faith" of the children. But wait folks, there's more. Who interfered with the "free willism faith" of the parents? You guessed it, their parents. Thus, the "free willism faith" is proven false.

I don't care for analogies.
We're men and God is God.
I don't think He needs to follow the same rules we do.

Plus, I don't have the time to ponder your philosophical dilemmas.

More biblical truth,
less philosophy.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It does not seem "just" to me either. Frankly, all of the people that died before hearing the Gospel (North America pre 1500) seem to have been "short changed". My ancestors living in Pagan Northern Europe with no access to either Torah or Gospel until the Middle Ages also seem "unjustly treated". As my father once said: "Who told you life was fair?"

I can see your point from a anthrocentic point of view. Perhaps one should look at the bigger picture, a theocentric point of view. What is God's purpose? Is there anything one that has any intrinsic value besides God? Should not the purpose of all things be God? sola Deo Gloria
Colossians 1:15 He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.

• Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.
• Acts 17:28a For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
• Hebrew 1:3a upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word

From this perspective one might see things differently. 1 Corinthians 13:12

 

[Fastfredy0]

... but God DID tell us that it was "according to the good pleasure of His will".
God saved who He wanted because He wanted to save them. (a bit "circular reasoning" ... but He is God and we are not!)

Agreed... in this is in keeping with what I said. God's reason for doing anything is Himself.
Circular reasoning.... hmmm.... agreed.....I heard an explanation for why this is OK.... hmmm ... what was it ...?
Found it .... technically it was about the Bible self-authorizing itself, but save principle applies

This is not a circular argument, for when God authorizes a book then there is no higher authority to go to.

[You can ask Him to explain when we see Him if you REALLY need to know. ]

Heck know, you ask Him. I read what He said to Job.
God's purpose is His glory. Good enough for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. It does not seem "just" to me either. Frankly, all of the people that died before hearing the Gospel (North America pre 1500) seem to have been "short changed". My ancestors living in Pagan Northern Europe with no access to either Torah or Gospel until the Middle Ages also seem "unjustly treated". As my father once said: "Who told you life was fair?"

How do you understand
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Since the creation of the world, His power and divine nature have been clearly seen through what He has made.
Persons are without excuse when they die - no matter when, even before we had a bible.
God always existed and He always revealed Himself.
A person could see that something superior had to exist.
He could decide to honor and worship that being - or not.
I do see God as being a just God in all circumstances.

No one was short-changed...
God is not only just, but loving and merciful.

1. 1. The traditional "Reformed" response is "everyone is a sinner and "Justice" is everyone condemned to hell.
   2. Free Will or Sovereign Grace ... I think MERCY is the operating principle in salvation rather than justice.

Yes, well, I'm sure you know the response to this.
Either everyone goes to hell or everyone goes to heaven,
but some litmus test must apply or there is no justice.

I believe God's mercy and love desires that all be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4 states this.
Of course, some will not want salvation, as you stated in your example of 2 persons hearing the same gospel.
But those that desire to be with God should have that opportunity.

• Technically, God chooses NOBODY for damnation ... God doesn't need to. Remember the scene in Revelation ... it is those whose name is written in the Book that are taken into Heaven. Everyone else faces judgement and condemnation for THEIR SINS (not God's malice). Remember that John 3 includes both verse 16 and verse 18.

Names could be blotted out of the Book of Life.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
and many more...

And your first sentence just can't be accepted....
IF God is choosing some for heaven....
the rest are going to hell.
Defacto choosing them for hell.
You can't get around this.
At least THIS has to be accepted by the reformed.

• • [Jhn 3:16 NLT] 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
  • [Jhn 3:18 NLT] 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son.

Agreed.
As you've written it.
But I know we don't understand it the same way.

For me it's prescriptive.
For you it's descriptive.
and never the twain shall meet!

Tomorrow A, it's late here.
If you like a good debate, check out the free will thread I started about an hour ago.
In Theology...

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.

It does seem to me that the subject matter is of such great importance that PERHAPS God would make us know how to be saved - as He certainly does in the NT.
In Acts 16:31 the jailer asks how to be saved and he's told to believe in Jesus and he would be saved.
Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
John 3:16 states that all those who believe will be saved. WHOSOEVER believes, which is slightly different.

????
Acts 16:31 does NOT tell us why God caused the Jailer to believe.
Romans 10:17 merely tells us that hearing the gospel is a prerequisite for saving faith
John 3:16 merely says whoever believes will be saved. It does not tell us why God causes one to believe
The cause of a person believing is God. John 1:12-13 say it is by the will of God one believes and then God denies the "free willie faith" in the verses by explicitly saying people are NOT saved via human will.
Now, why God chooses person A and not person B is not told to us.

One person might accept and not the other.
Only the actual person will know why...this we really can't know.

This to an extent is untrue. We know why. God chose us. John 1:12-13. Why He did it one does not know save it is for His Glory.

Doesn't the NT affirm that God is IMPARTIAL ?

God is impartial.... but few men understand it.
God figuratively forms each person out to clay (see potter and clay in Romans 9). So its all the same clay figuratively. He forms some into sheep (anthropomorphic) and some goats.
Man loves man and man loves to see things from his point of view. Free Willyism is man centered theology and proposes we form ourselves via our 'free will' created in the imaginary ether some how by who knows what (dualism).
Oh praise man for what he has done (sarcasm)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Time to watch the news.... to see how God's eternal plan plays out in time

.....or .... as the 'free willy faith" would put it .... let's see what various man's free will negates the "free will" of other men and how God reacts to the sovereign 'free will' of men. 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Time to watch the news.... to see how God's eternal plan plays out in time

.....or .... as the 'free willy faith" would put it .... let's see what various man's free will negates the "free will" of other men and how God reacts to the sovereign 'free will' of men. 2

You really are obsessed with the free will debate.
Would you know why?

And I know you're being sarcastic and playing on words when you call us free willyers...but boy is it bothersome.

Maybe because you spell it free williers?
Tomorrow on the rest...
Too late here.

 

[Fastfredy0]

ou really are obsessed with the free will debate.
Would you know why?

when you call us free willyers

Re: Calling US free willyers (referring to yourself and free willy followers) .
Free willyism is the central doctrine upon which much of your theology relies. It is a fairly easy task to show it an unbiblical farce and that is objectionable to God in scripture as well as a logical and Ontological impossibility.
Although the bible does not explicitly say God determines whether or not you eat a banana or orange for lunch, it does so implicitly. When it comes to faith leading to salvation the bible does explicitly state that it is the will of God that determines who is saved thus refuting the false, anti-christian doctrine of 'free willyism'.

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism [free will] is false. Vincent Cheung – Ultimate Questions

Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts. We will be filled with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.

1. Psalm 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, in Thy favor toward Thy people; Visit me with Thy salvation, 5 That I may see the prosperity of Thy chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Thy nation, That I may glory with Thine inheritance. NASB
2. Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me (predestination), When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
   1. Isaiah 41:9 "Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the
      chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast
      thee away." This passage shows God’s distinguishing love.
   2. Amos 3:2 You only (Israel) have I known [equivalent to salvation – see definitions] of all the families of the earth.
   3. Malachi 1:2-3 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”
   4. Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Predestination,-Of-Persons Matthew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. [God determined their choice]
   5. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose].
   6. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
   7. Matthew 13:11 Jesus replied to them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

I can list another 400ish verses discrediting 'free willyism' which so severely misguides Christians in their search for truth. It is only upon destruction of this spurious construction can Christians hopes to understand other truths God has presented in scripture.

John 1:12-13 explicitly says we are saved by the will of God and to double down it says one is not save by man's will.
It not rocket science, yet the 'free will' sophism remains prevalent in Christianity.

 

[miamited]

I have been doing this a long time. Any one who has been a Christian will agree if asked do they believe God is sovereign. Reformed people see it everywhere, all parts of life, over all men and over the will of man. Not everyone agrees with that as we know. We will offer on all these topics.

Hi Iconoclast

Thanks for that bit. In that case, I'm one of those not in agreement. I don't believe that God micro-manages all that goes on, on the earth. I believe that men have free will and God has sent out the gospel of eternal life through His Son to all men that they may believe. See, I don't think the gospel was sent out to those that God had already saved before sin ever entered into the world. Now, don't misunderstand me in this. Yes!!!!!! God does have work that He has micromanaged from the day He spoke, "Let there be light!" But it isn't absolutely everything that goes on, on the earth.

You see, if I'm understanding your position, that makes God unfair to me. He just picks and chooses who will be saved 50,000 years ago and all this living for the rest of us is just for naught, eh. Sounds like a pretty cruel taskmaster to me. But, if God, as I believe, wants all men to be saved, which is what His word says, then He hasn't chosen some...He's chosen all. But the caveat is that they have to come to Him on His terms. They have to hear and understand the gospel and come to God through the same Son through which God made everything in this realm of His creating. Jesus really is the answer to everything for everyone.

So you believe that everyone we read about in the Acts of the apostles coming to salvation, was already saved before the world was created. Jesus was just making a good show of it to the rest of us so all the actors could gloat over us. Got it!

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't believe that God micro-manages all that goes on, on the earth.

Do you have a scripture stating something is not managed by God.
Eph. 1:11 would be one of many verses teaching the contrary

I believe that men have free will

Well, one has to define free will to give the statement meaning. If you mean that one can choose God and God does not choose them via their will then that is contradicted by John 1:11-12 .... and 100s of other verses.

You see, if I'm understanding your position, that makes God unfair to me.

From man's point of view I see your point. God's ways are not your ways and God's thoughts not your thoughts. Therefore, unless you have a scripture saying God says He has done something 'unfair', your statement lacks foundation as it is founded on your perception of what you feel God should do.

He just picks and chooses who will be saved 50,000 years ago and all this living for the rest of us is just for naught, eh. Sounds like a pretty cruel taskmaster to me.

Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us (those to be saved) before the foundation of the earth... when we were nothing.
Free Will says our salvation is Free of God's influence. From nothing nothing comes, therefore God could not ascertain what we would do from us and therefore He must rely upon His eternal decree what should happen as He determines it. Also notice the verse says HE CHOSE US, not we chose Him. One of 50 verses making a similar claim.
Re: cruel taskmaster ... from man's point of view I have sympathy. God's purpose is His glory as at one time there was only Him; therefore, He alone has intrinsic value.

But, if God, as I believe, wants all men to be saved, which is what His word says,

If God wished all men to be saved He at a minimum who see to it that everyone without exception would hear the gospel (faith cometh by hearing) so they could use their hypothetical "free will", yet billions have died having never heard of Christ.
Re: God wishing all men be saved is scriptural (1 Timothy 2:4 ) and would take a while to explain. I will put doubt into your mine by showing verses that show ALL to be ambiguous and leave it at that.

• Acts 26:4 Paul says, The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. Does he mean that every Jew without exception knew him? How about those who lived in the past and those who would live in the future?
• Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. ... unless you believe in universalism, it is plain the all (everyone without exception) has been justified
• Matthew 3:5 At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; it would be incredulous to believe everyone including babies, the blind, the disabled went to see Jesus
• I could go on

But the caveat is that they have to come to Him on His terms.

Again, how can those come to Him if they are dead and never heard of Him? (rhetorical question)

So you believe that everyone we read about in the Acts of the apostles coming to salvation, was already saved before the world was created.

Already chosen before God created time. Those chosen were 'saved' in time.


John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).