Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Requests to use scripture to support your claims.

Is this your standard argument? You seem to use it a lot.

Well, you don't use scripture much compared to others so you hear it from me more often.... but that's a tangential issue.
Premise 1: God is infallible truth is found in scripture
Conclusion: Anything found in scripture is infallible truth and should be the decisive answer to any question that scripture addresses. (Granted, misinterpretation is possible and scripture does not answer all questions)

 

[miamited]

Hi Iconoclast

In a sermon I heard the pastor asked the lady who struggled against the idea of election. He asked her;
Did God save you or did you save yourself? she said God saved me. Then the pastor said did He save you on purpose, or was it an accident?She said God saved me on purpose. He said...That is the doctrine of election!

Man, that's a wonderful homily. It's a shame that it isn't true. Yes, God through the Holy Spirit calls us based on His understanding of our heart. Jesus was clear that no one comes to him, that the Father doesn't first 'draw' them to him. The word 'draw' likely needs some definition. BTW the lady was wrong. God did not save 'her' on purpose. God put out His word which tells us His plan. He sent His Son which fulfilled His plan. Now, as Peter says, God is waiting for 'some' to come to the knowledge of truth. It isn't forced. That's the entire part of this plan that so many people don't seem to get. God isn't going to force anyone to do anything. He's just put it out there and now waits patiently for some to come to the knowledge of His salvation and turn back to Him through His Son, Jesus.

So yes, we don't agree on this understanding of God's word.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Re: Requests to use scripture to support your claims.

You repeatedly request scripture to support what is necessarily implied. For example, if God says (and he does repeatedly) "CHOOSE" you do not believe that any man can choose unless God said, "I made you able to choose." (I know you have this fast shuffle were God is manipulating emotions but it still means there is no free choice as God is MAKING the man make a choice he/she did not freely come to decide.) The obvious "choose and there are consequences for your choices either way" does not mean we can choose to you unless, like a lawyer, it says we can choose. You have rendered yourself blind to the obvious.

Well, you don't use scripture much compared to others so you hear it from me more often.... but that's a tangential issue.
Premise 1: God is infallible truth is found in scripture
Conclusion: Anything found in scripture is infallible truth and should be the decisive answer to any question that scripture addresses. (Granted, misinterpretation is possible and scripture does not answer all questions)

You used that against someone else which was my question. And I do use scripture but you do not recognize it without the reference. I could try to write some paragraphs with scripture woven in, not necessarily direct quotes (if you look up the NT the references to the OT, you will find the words are not exactly the same but the idea is there) and ask you if you found ANY scripture there at all and I think you would not find much even though it would be loaded.

Premise 1: man is fallible
Premise 2: therefore man's thinking is fallible
Premise 3: therefore man can read the infallible and draw fallible conclusions
Conclusion: what men THINK the infallible Word of God says is not necessarily what the writer and Person inspiring the words thought.

 

[miamited]

Hi Iconoclast

Ted, we go back and forth. I am trying to give a little bit more I what i have found. We each give account of ourselves to God. We each have to have all the verses fit , not just some.

That's right. All the verses have to fit.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

I disagree. I think the KJV is the best

As I said, the KJV is very accurate.... but IMO not as (lol... mistyped and wrote "ass" instead of "as"... anyways) accurate and most other english translastions. I believe the king put minor restrictions on it and Revelation was translated partly from a commentary as the publisher put a time to press pressure on them.
Example of questionable texts,
Mark 16:9-20 not found in older manuscripts (story of Mary Magdalene)
John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB
John 7:53-8:11 Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery

You can watch youtube and search for "james white kjv only debate" for more info. Like I said, not a biggy. I don't care for it since I was a kid as the language is difficult to read and understand at times....

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As I said, the KJV is very accurate.... but IMO not as (lol... mistyped and wrote "ass" instead of "as"... anyways) accurate and most other english translastions. I believe the king put minor restrictions on it and Revelation was translated partly from a commentary as the publisher put a time to press pressure on them.
Example of questionable texts,
Mark 16:9-20 not found in older manuscripts (story of Mary Magdalene)
John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB
John 7:53-8:11 Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery

You can watch youtube and search for "james white kjv only debate" for more info. Like I said, not a biggy. I don't care for it since I was a kid as the language is difficult to read and understand at times....

I have heard a more detailed history of the Bible and read and have a few translations. I do not agree and some of the verses left out of the "newer" one often leave out important aspects and render the passage rather absurd. But we would derail the thread if we go there.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast

Man, that's a wonderful homily. It's a shame that it isn't true. Yes, God through the Holy Spirit calls us based on His understanding of our heart. Jesus was clear that no one comes to him, that the Father doesn't first 'draw' them to him. The word 'draw' likely needs some definition. BTW the lady was wrong. God did not save 'her' on purpose. God put out His word which tells us His plan. He sent His Son which fulfilled His plan. Now, as Peter says, God is waiting for 'some' to come to the knowledge of truth. It isn't forced. That's the entire part of this plan that so many people don't seem to get. God isn't going to force anyone to do anything. He's just put it out there and now waits patiently for some to come to the knowledge of His salvation and turn back to Him through His Son, Jesus.

So yes, we don't agree on this understanding of God's word.

God bless,
Ted

So your idea is that God waits?
He has done all He can do?
Now it is totally up to man to save himself,God cannot save Him?
Jn6:44 says no man can come, but you say God waits for that to happen?
God has no idea who will come, He can only wait, like a spectator...wishing and hoping somebody might come?
This is not what I see from a Covenant making God.
Explain your idea on this.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am afraid I consider myself lucky. The US was pretty scary during the Covid years. But I cannot say most of Europe was different. Most of Europe was the same tyranny.

Agreed .... all my family did not get the CLOT SHOT. They threatened my wife and son's employment. Luckily, they withdrew their assault before it got to that point.
Anecdotal: Mother-in-law got shot and died 2 weeks later. Granted, she was in bad health to start with. Father-in-law got Clot Shot and 4 days later in hospital. Granted, he's 95, but good health for 95. Aside: Wife is Power of Whatever and told them not to shot him up.

Jesus did not care about where a verse was and neither did any of the Bible writers.

Jesus word in itself is authoritative and does not need references. Aside: Just because the New Testament does not say Jesus did not give a reference does not mean He did not do so. Also, I don't know if the O.T. was divided up into chapters and verse numbers, do you?

I challenge you to find me a verse that says we love God automatically or God sees us as loving Him because Jesus did.

I gave 6 verses. I could give more. This is part of what the meaning of being IN CHRIST ((Union with Christ, in Him, with Him, by Him) means.

Believer’s Union with Christ

1. Crucified together (Galatians 2:20)

2.Died together (Colossians 2:20; Romans 7:6)

1. Buried together (Romans 6:4)
2. Quickened together, sit together in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:6)
3. Raised together (Colossians 3:1; Romans 6:4)
4. Sufferers together (Romans 8:17)
5. Glorified together (Romans 8:17)
6. The Trinity is in believer’s and believer’s in the Trinity (See Upper Room Discourse)

You better hope I'm right. When I get to heaven and God asks why do you think you should be here I will answer: "Entirely because of what Christ did for me. I am perfectly righteous because of Him."



Fastfredy0 said: General Aside: Now the Free Will worshipers would say that by their free will they were able to, independent of God, accomplish great feats of obedience for which they should be rewarded.

Nope, straw man. This is an argument you borrowed form others and it is divorced from real life. No one who has loved God and obeyed him says this. No one. The experience is nothing like the above description.

Ah, then you are with me. You agree that Free Willism had nothing to do with your obedience?
Hmmm, I withdraw the question. Your definition of "free will" became unclear to me in a past discussion as it seemed to evolve, so any question I ask would have little meaning without the foundation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Iconoclast

That's right. All the verses have to fit.

God bless,
Ted

Yes...so what do you make of these verses? What is being talked about? Do we just ignore such verses or, do they direct us on how the 66 books fit together?

psalm25:14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

psalm89:
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Heb.13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
What do you have TED?

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed .... all my family did not get the CLOT SHOT. They threatened my wife and son's employment. Luckily, they withdrew their assault before it got to that point.
Anecdotal: Mother-in-law got shot and died 2 weeks later. Granted, she was in bad health to start with. Father-in-law got Clot Shot and 4 days later in hospital. Granted, he's 95, but good health for 95. Aside: Wife is Power of Whatever and told them not to shot him up.



Jesus word in itself is authoritative and does not need references. Aside: Just because the New Testament does not say Jesus did not give a reference does not mean He did not do so. Also, I don't know if the O.T. was divided up into chapters and verse numbers, do you?


I gave 6 verses. I could give more. This is part of what the meaning of being IN CHRIST ((Union with Christ, in Him, with Him, by Him) means.

Believer’s Union with Christ

1. Crucified together (Galatians 2:20)

2.Died together (Colossians 2:20; Romans 7:6)

1. Buried together (Romans 6:4)
2. Quickened together, sit together in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:6)
3. Raised together (Colossians 3:1; Romans 6:4)
4. Sufferers together (Romans 8:17)
5. Glorified together (Romans 8:17)
6. The Trinity is in believer’s and believer’s in the Trinity (See Upper Room Discourse)

You better hope I'm right. When I get to heaven and God asks why do you think you should be here I will answer: "Entirely because of what Christ did for me. I am perfectly righteous because of Him."



Fastfredy0 said: General Aside: Now the Free Will worshipers would say that by their free will they were able to, independent of God, accomplish great feats of obedience for which they should be rewarded.


Ah, then you are with me. You agree that Free Willism had nothing to do with your obedience?
Hmmm, I withdraw the question. Your definition of "free will" became unclear to me in a past discussion as it seemed to evolve, so any question I ask would have little meaning without the foundation.

Very solid Brother.This is the core of it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You repeatedly request scripture to support what is necessarily implied. For example, if God says (and he does repeatedly) "CHOOSE" you do not believe that any man can choose unless God said, "I made you able to choose." (I know you have this fast shuffle were God is manipulating emotions but it still means there is no free choice as God is MAKING the man make a choice he/she did not freely come to decide.) The obvious "choose and there are consequences for your choices either way" does not mean we can choose to you unless, like a lawyer, it says we can choose. You have rendered yourself blind to the obvious.

You were not able to provide a consistent definition of "free will" our past conversation.... in other words your initial definition altered as we spoke on the subject. I can't debate a subject where the crux of the matter (what is Free Will) is not defined or changes.

And I do use scripture but you do not recognize

It is IMO the responsibility of the author to communicate as clearly as reasonably possible. Your failure to give scripture references is evidence you do not wish to communicate clearly causing large inefficiencies in any discussion to the point of futility. I know you disagree... that I am suppose to see scripture interwoven in your comments. Maybe God see them, I don't.

Premise 1: man is fallible
Premise 2: therefore man's thinking is fallible
Premise 3: therefore man can read the infallible and draw fallible conclusions
Conclusion: what men THINK the infallible Word of God says is not necessarily what the writer and Person inspiring the words thought.

Agreed ... I made the same observation above. Man is less fallible when he considers God word than when he does not. You can communicate evasively by not giving references, that's you choice.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed .... all my family did not get the CLOT SHOT. They threatened my wife and son's employment. Luckily, they withdrew their assault before it got to that point.
Anecdotal: Mother-in-law got shot and died 2 weeks later. Granted, she was in bad health to start with. Father-in-law got Clot Shot and 4 days later in hospital. Granted, he's 95, but good health for 95. Aside: Wife is Power of Whatever and told them not to shot him up.

That’s a new but accurate term, clot shot. I’ll remember that.

Jesus word in itself is authoritative and does not need references.

He quoted others frequently. He didn’t say he was authoritative. Others said that of him.

Aside: Just because the New Testament does not say Jesus did not give a reference does not mean He did not do so.

Really? Can I say then that just because God never directly said, “I give you free will” it doesn’t mean He didn’t? That’s fair right?

Also, I don't know if the O.T. was divided up into chapters and verse numbers, do you?

I do know, it wasn’t. But He could have said who. He often didn’t.

I gave 6 verses. I could give more. This is part of what the meaning of being IN CHRIST ((Union with Christ, in Him, with Him, by Him) means.

None of those said we are automatically credited with loving God no matter what we do. Righteousness is not the same as loving God.

Believer’s Union with Christ

1. Crucified together (Galatians 2:20)

2.Died together (Colossians 2:20; Romans 7:6)

1. Buried together (Romans 6:4)
2. Quickened together, sit together in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:6)
3. Raised together (Colossians 3:1; Romans 6:4)
4. Sufferers together (Romans 8:17)
5. Glorified together (Romans 8:17)
6. The Trinity is in believer’s and believer’s in the Trinity (See Upper Room Discourse)

No word on loving God accredited to us.

You better hope I'm right. When I get to heaven and God asks why do you think you should be here I will answer: "Entirely because of what Christ did for me. I am perfectly righteous because of Him."

He won’t ask me that question. I don’t think a legal answer will do if he asks someone that in any case.

Fastfredy0 said: General Aside: Now the Free Will worshipers would say that by their free will they were able to, independent of God, accomplish great feats of obedience for which they should be rewarded.


Ah, then you are with me. You agree that Free Willism had nothing to do with your obedience?

Not correct. But it’s more complex than all Him or all me.

Hmmm, I withdraw the question. Your definition of "free will" became unclear to me in a past discussion as it seemed to evolve, so any question I ask would have little meaning without the foundation.

It’s never changed. Maybe you forget, my friend.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You were not able to provide a consistent definition of "free will" our past conversation.... in other words your initial definition altered as we spoke on the subject. I can't debate a subject where the crux of the matter (what is Free Will) is not defined or changes.



It is IMO the responsibility of the author to communicate as clearly as reasonably possible. Your failure to give scripture references is evidence you do not wish to communicate clearly causing large inefficiencies in any discussion to the point of futility. I know you disagree... that I am suppose to see scripture interwoven in your comments. Maybe God see them, I don't.



Agreed ... I made the same observation above. Man is less fallible when he considers God word than when he does not. You can communicate evasively by not giving references, that's you choice.

It was how educated people discussed matters in generations previous to ours. The Bible is full of quoting previous scripture without even hinting it is a quote. If one reads books by others from previous generations, they do the same. Our uneducated society doesn’t recognize quotes without bold colored blinking lights indicating a quote is coming.

 

[atpollard]

Doesn't the NT affirm that God is IMPARTIAL ?

How is God impartial?

Were the ancient Norse treated the same as the ancient Jews?
Where was my ancestor's burning bush to teach us about God?

God is "no respecter of persons". God chose some Jews (like David) and not others (like Esau). God chose some non-Jews (like Ruth) and not others (the Canaanites). God chose some members of my family (Me) and not others (my murdered siblings and atheist parent).

 

[atpollard]

Is it just to not give to everyone the same opportunity to be saved?

Does everyone really have the same opportunity to be saved?
Explain to me how that works.

 

[atpollard]

From this perspective one might see things differently.

Small comfort for those created as "objects of wrath" ... What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, [Romans 9:22-23]

 

[atpollard]

No one was short-changed...
God is not only just, but loving and merciful.

Respectfully, there is a huge difference between "knowing that there IS a God" (from His creation) and "knowing God" (because He gave you the Torah). God gave something to Israel that He withheld from the rest of the world (until they hear the Gospel).

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: Calling US free willyers (referring to yourself and free willy followers) .
Free willyism is the central doctrine upon which much of your theology relies. It is a fairly easy task to show it an unbiblical farce and that is objectionable to God in scripture as well as a logical and Ontological impossibility.
Although the bible does not explicitly say God determines whether or not you eat a banana or orange for lunch, it does so implicitly. When it comes to faith leading to salvation the bible does explicitly state that it is the will of God that determines who is saved thus refuting the false, anti-christian doctrine of 'free willyism'.

It is God who sovereignly chooses the elect, so that Paul says, "He has chosen you," and not "He has approved of your choice." If God does little more than accept our choice, then he does not choose us in any real sense of the term. But Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Therefore, Arminianism [free will] is false. Vincent Cheung – Ultimate Questions

John Calvin based all of his ideas on two premises:
1 Man is born totally depraved...not as depraved in every part of himself, but so depraved that he is unable to seek God. This makes it necessary for God to pull man to Himself by only God's choice.
2 Man does not have free will and so cannot choose God but will always choose to serve satan.

these are the 2 premises upon which reformed theology is built.

As to
John 15:16
16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

The above verse is Jesus speaking to His Apostles.
He chose them individually, 12, representing the 12 Tribes of Israel.
He appointed them to go and bear fruit. Jesus did not appoint all disciples to go and bear fruit, but only His original Apostles.

This can be confirmed by the last verse,
John 15:26-27
26“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Only the Apostles were with Jesus from the beginning.
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles and all scholars will affirm this except for the reformed.
They did not choose Jesus to be their teacher, but Jesus chose them to be His Apostels.

Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to dwell in Your courts. We will be filled with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.

1. Psalm 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, in Thy favor toward Thy people; Visit me with Thy salvation, 5 That I may see the prosperity of Thy chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Thy nation, That I may glory with Thine inheritance. NASB
2. Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me (predestination), When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
   1. Isaiah 41:9 "Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the
      chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast
      thee away." This passage shows God’s distinguishing love.
   2. Amos 3:2 You only (Israel) have I known [equivalent to salvation – see definitions] of all the families of the earth.
   3. Malachi 1:2-3 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.”
   4. Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Predestination,-Of-Persons Matthew 11:21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. [God determined their choice]
   5. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose].
   6. Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
   7. Matthew 13:11 Jesus replied to them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

I can list another 400ish verses discrediting 'free willyism' which so severely misguides Christians in their search for truth. It is only upon destruction of this spurious construction can Christians hopes to understand other truths God has presented in scripture.

John 1:12-13 explicitly says we are saved by the will of God and to double down it says one is not save by man's will.
It not rocket science, yet the 'free will' sophism remains prevalent in Christianity.

I'll be happy to discuss any scripture with you,
but one at a time. I'm not responding to carpet-bombing.


I have asked quite a few times where in the OT free will was taken away from us since Adam surely had it...
but no answer is forthcoming.

 

[miamited]

psalm25:14

The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

That means that the Lord makes known to those who love him and fear him, the knowledge of his covenant.

psalm89:26-28

He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. I will maintain my love to him forever, and my covenant with him will never fail.

That is God telling us that Jesus will cry out to the Father. He will declare that God is his Father and his God and the pillar upon which the promise of Jesus' salvation stands.

The rest of the passage just pounds home to us 'who' Jesus is. However, you're going to have to be a little more explanatory as to what these passages have to do with the subject that you and I are discussing. I don't think I've said anything that denies the truth of any of these passages you have quoted. If you believe that I have, please make it known.

That's what I got Iconoclast

God bless,
Ted

 

[Fastfredy0]

Really? Can I say then that just because God never directly said, “I give you free will” it doesn’t mean He didn’t? That’s fair right?

No you cannot because Jesus did say the God didn't give man FREE WILL in regards to believe or not.
Aside: Again, you have not defined FREE WILL, so that makes for a discussion without foundation.

None of those said we are automatically credited with loving God no matter what we do. Righteousness is not the same as loving God.

Love is a volition to favor. One cannot be righteous and not love God. They are related to a degree.
That being said I wasn't speaking of righteousness in relation to love. I was speaking of the imputation of righteous. I think some miscommunication is all.

No word on loving God accredited to us.

Again. We had minor miscommunication.



Re: Your definition of Free Will

It’s never changed. Maybe you forget, my friend.

You confused me eventually. Maybe another miscommunication.