Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[GodsGrace]

Wow, your theology thinks it is just for a holy God to kill babies. Interesting.



Ah, I like to consider the "free-will" (non-reform) theory.

Theory 1:
Premise 1: each age of accountability individual has a choice to be depraved or not per Free Will (which is not in the bible)
Premise 2: God says all of mankind is depraved
Premise 3: To be fair each 'free willies' have to have 50/50 chance of picking to be depraved or not depraved via their 'free will'. Free will being self-created and outside of God's control as God value the sovereignty of man in such instances.
Conclusion: the odds of 10 people all picking to be depraved is 1 in 1024. There is, let's say 6 billion people reaching the age of accountability so the odds of that are 2 to the 5,000,000,000 power that they all picked to be depraved. (In layman's term ... no chance) Therefore, free will is false or there is another solution - see theory 2
Aside: those dying before reaching the age of accountability also don't have free will as they go to heaven or hell according to God's free will. God's free will in these cases does not take a back seat to the sovereignty of man.

Theory 2:
Premise 1: Adam had free will
Premise 2: Adam blew it (sinned)
Premise 3: Everyone after Adam was depraved because of Adam
Premise 4: God knew Adam would 'blow it'
Conclusion: Adam's free will nullified the free will of all those billions who came afterwards. Thus "free willism" is false save in Adam.
Given the odds of theory 1, this seems the superior Free Will theory.

Of course, God being all knowing knew that Adam would blow it. He could have created another (says Adam2 or Adam 3, whatever it took to have an Adam) that He knew would not use his 'free will' to sin. Theoretically, Adam's replacement could have saved all mankind although again sacrificing the 'free will' decision of his prodigy to determine to be depraved or not.
Aside: God being a loving God went with the first Adam knowing that billions of His loved ones would go to hell.

Pseudo logical hypotheticals of Non-reformed theology which also illlogically assumes God knows what nothing will do in the future.



Well, you've convinced me you don't seek the wisdom from other sources.

No comment.
I like serious conversations.

And my point was that you're in the THEOLOGY FORUM.
I wasn't arguing with you as to what YOU personally can use at home.

************************************************************************

It's required to use the bible in the Theology Forum, especially when asked for scripture.
Please state book, chapter and verse.
Thanks.

 

[Iconoclast]

wondering
You said this-
[
Yes. It was about God being just or not.
I basically said God could kill everyone of us tomorrow. It's His right to do so...He is sovereign over all.
He is God. He can do what He wants, I think were my exact words.

I question God as being a just God in reformed theology.
I just can't explain this again Icon. Really...
]

If you can see this with 1sam15, why not be consistent with the White Throne judgment?
God saves multitudes that cannot be counted...multitudes also perish? God is 100% Just. He is perfect, His Judgment is 100% perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

How do you define a Covenant?

The same way all theologians do.
And all biblical scholars...
I wouldn't know how the reformed define it...
Seems like everything is different in the reformed faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

How do you define a Covenant?

PS
You haven't replied to my post no. 72...

Hope you're not doing what you accuse me of...
Not replying
Skipping over posts
etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
You said this-
[
Yes. It was about God being just or not.
I basically said God could kill everyone of us tomorrow. It's His right to do so...He is sovereign over all.
He is God. He can do what He wants, I think were my exact words.

I question God as being a just God in reformed theology.
I just can't explain this again Icon. Really...
]

If you can see this with 1sam15, why not be consistent with the White Throne judgment?
God saves multitudes that cannot be counted...multitudes also perish? God is 100% Just. He is perfect, His Judgment is 100% perfect.

No Icon.
It is you that is unable to see how the reformed are teaching an unjust God.
If you don't understand why God is just in one situation and not in the other,
I certainly am not going to be able to show you.

I leave it up to the Holy Spirit.
And I'm not at all sure what the White Throne Judgement has to do with this.

 

[Iconoclast]

The same way all theologians do.
And all biblical scholars...
I wouldn't know how the reformed define it...
Seems like everything is different in the reformed faith.

Let me ask it in this way....I will describe two different sports, without using the name of the sport specifically.Tell me what sports are being described .......
1] Goalie, midfield, offsides, penalty shot, corner kick, net

2] Pitchers mound, home plate, batter, batters box, foul pole, bases runs, bat,ball
which 2 sports are described?

 

[Iconoclast]

No Icon.
It is you that is unable to see how the reformed are teaching an unjust God.

Or you do not see the consistent view

If you don't understand why God is just in one situation and not in the other,
I certainly am not going to be able to show you.

Like wise you need to see who is consistent.

I leave it up to the Holy Spirit.
And I'm not at all sure what the White Throne Judgement has to do with this.

1 sam was a local judgment, the white throne is universal, and eternal

 

[Fastfredy0]

Anybody on this board can feel free to use my name, call me names, or whatever makes you happy.

I assume that includes me too .... you dirty, rotten, adopted son of God who is In Christ and has to endure a wedding feast with Christ the groom and is a co-heir with Christ; graciously given all things.
So, take that !!!
Aside: There, put him in his place... but he asked for it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or you do not see the consistent view

Like wise you need to see who is consistent.


1 sam was a local judgment, the white throne is universal, and eternal

You mean God WAS NOT just in the Amalikite situation?
Or you mean God is just in sending billions to hell for no reason at all?

BTW, you never did explain to me the REASON why God chooses some and not others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or you do not see the consistent view

Like wise you need to see who is consistent.


1 sam was a local judgment, the white throne is universal, and eternal

What does a local judgment and a universal judgment have to do with anything?
You mean God can by just locally but unjust univeresally?
What exactly do you mean?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hello Fredy,
A pleasure to interact with such an honorable man again.

Checks his calendar. No, it's not April 1st. (hmmmm, I am assuming you are familiar with the day in Swiss culture.)

Holy smokes.... you quoted 6 bible references. You got a fever? *giggle*

I was a missionary dependent upon donations

Wow, I am impressed. Takes deep devotion to do that.

Nice chatting with you Fredy.

I enjoyed our discussion. You're love for God is great. You love Him because He loved you first. 1 John 4:19

 

[atpollard]

What does a local judgment and a universal judgment have to do with anything?

They are equivalent in the sense that it is GOD who is the Judge in both cases.

You mean God can by just locally but unjust univeresally?

No. God is equally JUST in both cases.

What exactly do you mean?

The GOD that DID justly condemn many people in 1 Samuel (for His reasons) WILL justly condemn many people in Revelation (also for His reasons). That is the essence of "Divine Sovereignty".

[or as Corrie Ten Boon put it: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."]

 

[atpollard]

BTW, you never did explain to me the REASON why God chooses some and not others.

God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. [Ephesians 1:5 NLT]

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [Ephesians 1:5 NKJV]

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Ephesians 1:5 NIV]

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes. It was about God being just or not.
I basically said God could kill everyone of us tomorrow. It's His right to do so...He is sovereign over all.
He is God. He can do what He wants, I think were my exact words.

I question God as being a just God in reformed theology.
I just can't explain this again Icon. Really...

I answered this part on another post.

Stop telling me what I like and don't like.
I answered you...I don't know what else to say.
What kind of an answer were you looking for?
Sorry I didn't say what you wanted me to say.
I don't dance around questions - I don't have much time - I just answer.

Yes, eventually you did respond, I said just be consistent as you are still sending out mixed signals.

What theology do I hold that has no answer??

Non reformed theology has some truth, but a large portion of mixed in error. I have previously said a gallon of milk with some poison mixed in, becomes a gallon of poison.

And yes, I don't like your answers much of the time and I tell you so.
No problem.

That is quite alright, you offer what you believe. I will offer correction no worries about that. If you do not want that, do not ask the questions.

Huh?
When did I shrink back?
I could just not even be here, ya know?

I had to ask 5 x for your response on 1 sam15...that's when

What? I really don't know what you're talking about.
Want to ask me that all-important question again?
Wasn't it about the reason that God killed the Amalekites?
Men, women and children?

I had asked ,if it was just? you admitted God could do it, but were reluctant to say it was just. So I kept asking.

I replied that God could do what He wants to do.
They were destroyed to make way for the Israelites. (into Caanan and Israel).
It was just because God had His reason and His reason cannot be questioned.
He treated all the same and this also was just.

Now you need to expand that thought to God's overall worldwide plan, many saved, many lost, God is just.

You want me to compare it to reformed theology maybe?
In reformed theology God is NOT just because He shows partiality and we don't even know why.

Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

No Reformed person believes God is a respector of persons. This objection you share with Robert Pate, are what is called a red-herring. We are all Guilty sinners, nothing in us to commend ourselves to God.
When God elects His children they were viewed as fallen sinners. They were not elected because of any personal thing , or who they were.

1. God does NOT show partiality.
2. The man who fears Him and does what is right is welcomed to Him.
3. Any man who fears God is welcomed....not just some.

Also, Romans 2:11

I never said he did...this objection comes from wrong theology of the fall.

Maybe.
But I've learned from 3 different denominations and they all taught me the same theology...the study of God.
God is loving, merciful and just.
God cannot be separated from His character.

Yes, they cherry picked out a God who does what they think he will do. Not the God who does it all.

Because God felt it was the right thing to do.
Because He wanted to stop the A from attacking the Israelites.
Because He wanted to make room for them in Israel and the A were occupying the land God wanted for His peope.
Is that enough?
NO!
That would not be a good answer and here's why...AGAIN...

I do not go into philosophical speculation, or carnal reasoning and logic.
I go by revealed scripture.

In the gospel the good news is that even though man is fallen and separated from God, he can repent, believe in God and the sacrifice of Jesus, and become saved.
John 3:5,6
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
Romans 10:17
etc. etc.

God LET'S MAN KNOW what he MUST DO to become saved.
THIS is the GOOD NEWS.

Men are commanded to repent. Those who repent and believe are moved by God internally/

In reformed theology God CHOOSES who will be saved and who will spend eternity in torment

He chooses who are elected and given to the Son, the others are left to their own self sill.

AND HE DOESN'T TELL US WHY, because, as Calvin stated and the confessions, WE DO NOT KNOW WHY except it is for God's good pleasure.

That is enough reason for me, as God is Perfect in all His ways.

THIS IS NOT JUST.
We've been thru this 20 X.
It's time to stop.

That is your opinion I do not share it. If it is time to stop, then stop. If anyone brings it up, I will respond.

In reformed theology GOD IS partial to persons and we don't even know why.

This is a lie. No reformed person teaches this, unless it is a new believer who is confused.
Post where any confession of faith declares what you say.

The NT states that God IS NOT partial to persons.
Which is it?

I gave the biblical answer. I am not going to answer a false charge that we do not hold to.

Covenant of redemption?
Which covenant would that be?

I have posted on this before, so my sports question is going to help you get it, when explained.

Surely you must mean the New Covenant?

No...it is a bit different.

You even have your own names for the covenants.
BTW, the New Covenant and reformed theology DO NOT MIX.
I'd love to go through this.

That remains to be seen.
wondering Tenchi posted in post 71

 

[Iconoclast]

They are equivalent in the sense that it is GOD who is the Judge in both cases.


No. God is equally JUST in both cases.


The GOD that DID justly condemn many people in 1 Samuel (for His reasons) WILL justly condemn many people in Revelation (also for His reasons). That is the essence of "Divine Sovereignty".

[or as Corrie Ten Boon put it: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."]

Well said, solid post, brother! Good to see this here.

 

[Iconoclast]

God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. [Ephesians 1:5 NLT]

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [Ephesians 1:5 NKJV]

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Ephesians 1:5 NIV]

Yes....You biblically based Calvinists are always offering scripture, Imagine that!

 

[GodsGrace]

God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. [Ephesians 1:5 NLT]

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [Ephesians 1:5 NKJV]

he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- [Ephesians 1:5 NIV]

Hi A,
Nice to see you again.

The other member and I have been going around with this for a few posts now.

God does everything according to the good pleasure of His will.
This goes without saying.

The point is that in the NT it IS explained how one could choose to go to be with God
and what a person has to do to achieve this.

So we find out that we are sinners and we find out how to be forgiven if we want to be forgiven.

One of the problems I find to be true with the reformed faith, of which you are if I remember,
is that God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.

The problem, as I see it is
1. A person cannot know how to become saved - this does not seem just to those outside of reformed theology.
2. A God that is just would not choose this method - which is choosing some for salvation and some for damnation.

So it does not seem to be a good answer to just say that it is God's pleasure.
This is not reassuring to those that are damned.

 

[Iconoclast]

You mean God WAS NOT just in the Amalikite situation?
Or you mean God is just in sending billions to hell for no reason at all?

BTW, you never did explain to me the REASON why God chooses some and not others.

God is Holy and Just at all times. I did answer this.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is Holy and Just at all times. I did answer this.

OK Icon.

 

[Iconoclast]

What does a local judgment and a universal judgment have to do with anything?
You mean God can by just locally but unjust univeresally?
What exactly do you mean?

Let me ask it in this way....I will describe two different sports, without using the name of the sport specifically.Tell me what sports are being described .......
1] Goalie, midfield, offsides, penalty shot, corner kick, net

2] Pitchers mound, home plate, batter, batters box, foul pole, bases runs, bat,ball
which 2 sports are described?

Again...God can only be just at all times, local and temporary, or eternally. Always just, Always Holy.

Now the sports post
Soccer , baseball...even ray Charles can see it.
Covenant of Redemption is only between the Father, Son, and Spirit, before the world was. It comes to man progressively as the Covenant of Grace after the fall takes place.
What you know as the covenants that you posted from a google search, these all fit under the Covenant of grace.