Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[GodsGrace]

You don't know? Where do you think it came from .... your "free will?" Did Man chose to be depraved? Did you chose to be depraved and if so why?

https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html ... here you go
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature.

..... and because of this depravity man is not capable on his own to seek God. To compensate for this, the false and unbiblical doctrine of “prevenient grace” (https://www.gotquestions.org/prevenient-grace.html) was created by man to support the he false and unbiblical doctrine of "free will" (where the definition "free will", because it abiblical, has many definitions.

I asked you where our depraved nature comes from.
It requires a simple answer.
If you don't care to answer it's fine...

I'm not speaking about free will...
I don't care what QotQuestions has to say about this...
And I didn't ask where it originated...

I mean WHERE DOES OUR DEPRAVED NATURE COME FROM?
You say Adam and Eve.
And WHY did Adam sin?
Did God predestinate him to sin?
Did God decree Adam to sin?

Or, in this case, did God conveniently ALLOW Adam to sin,
and after this, and only after this, did all the reformed teachings come into being?

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this.
You can reply or not.
But if you're going to reply, then really reply.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, John died in March 1791, at the age of 87. This was, of course, after he and Charles had founded their movement. Charles' hymns were - are - among the most popular in the UK.

There was a Methodist chapel in my town, not far from my Baptism chapel. As kids we used to tease the Methodists, who still retained touches of their Anglican heritage, by saying that there was 'madness in their method!'. Sadly, both chapels are no more. Mine was pulled down decades ago, and the Methodist chapel is now a block of flats.

Methodist Episcopal church .

I have photos of plenty old ones .I need one to grab a photo of that is pre 1900..the older churches here are Methodist.

Roseland ,then ft.pierce and stuart ,white city one is in there but it's time frame I haven't seen yet.

It's 1874,1890,1892.white city one is 1890.
These save the white city one where started by one pastor on a canoe who traveled down the lagoon

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, John died in March 1791, at the age of 87. This was, of course, after he and Charles had founded their movement. Charles' hymns were - are - among the most popular in the UK.

There was a Methodist chapel in my town, not far from my Baptism chapel. As kids we used to tease the Methodists, who still retained touches of their Anglican heritage, by saying that there was 'madness in their method!'. Sadly, both chapels are no more. Mine was pulled down decades ago, and the Methodist chapel is now a block of flats.

Churches are becoming empty.
England is just about atheist. Don't know about the rest of the UK.
Ditto for Italy and France and I think Germany.
Post modernism.
Z Generation.
I don't know how other "religions" are doing.
Maybe some legalism would be in order?
I'm not sure.
Islam is hanging in there, but some persons practice it only because they have to, and they do not really believe.

Can this be what God wants??

 

[electedbyHim]

It's not necessary to post another member - you can still make your point, as I did.
However, IF you use the name of the other member, please tag them in.

In this case I was referring to Iconoclast .
I'll repeat for his benefit...
Because Iconoclast "teaches" something or other, it is what HE believes to be true...
everyone else on this board does not have to agree with him.

Right no one has to agree.

However, what he teaches here is Biblical, it is not his opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right no one has to agree.

However, what he teaches here is Biblical, it is not his opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

I understand E.
The problem with hermeneutics is that different persons understand the bible in different ways.
Even theologians disagree with each other or we'd all have the same belief system.

I'm not here to teach anyone...I share what I've learned during my life as a Christian, which is a really long time.
It's not even to convince anyone, but to share what I believe to be true and to learn what others believe.
And to attempt to do this with respect for the other person.
We could disagree and still get along.

 

[electedbyHim]

From my conversations with you I believe that you understand that God predestines all men from before time began to either heaven or hell.

I believe that you understand that God predestined, or whatever word you want to use, all things that happen.
However, through some odd theology, He is not responsible for sin or for making man sin, even though God DID predestine everything, or cause it to happen.

I welcome your correction.

Close but not complete by any means.

Humans send themselves to hell by their own sinful "free will".

God ordains and orchestrates everything that comes to pass. There are too many Bible verses that show this very clearly.

God "allowed" sin to come about for His own Glory and purpose. The Bible does not say why. I will not question the Lord.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

I understand E.
The problem with hermeneutics is that different persons understand the bible in different ways.
Even theologians disagree with each other or we'd all have the same belief system.

I'm not here to teach anyone...I share what I've learned during my life as a Christian, which is a really long time.
It's not even to convince anyone, but to share what I believe to be true and to learn what others believe.
And to attempt to do this with respect for the other person.
We could disagree and still get along.

I understand what you are saying.

The problem I see, is that mans pride gets in the way of how he wants to interpret the Bible.

Then you have theologians who are not even saved and used by Satan to distort the truth.

There are many aspects to this.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[jasonc]

Churches are becoming empty.
England is just about atheist. Don't know about the rest of the UK.
Ditto for Italy and France and I think Germany.
Post modernism.
Z Generation.
I don't know how other "religions" are doing.
Maybe some legalism would be in order?
I'm not sure.
Islam is hanging in there, but some persons practice it only because they have to, and they do not really believe.

Can this be what God wants??

It depends on why ,often it is simply because no one raises up or disciples the next generation.

Case in order in point white city ,and wabasso Methodist churches . The latter is now the Haitian out reach of the same demononation

 

[jasonc]

It depends on why ,often it is simply because no one raises up or disciples the next generation.

Case in order in point white city ,and wabasso Methodist churches . The latter is now the Haitian out reach of the same demononation

I should post testimonies of saints I find in looking up the dead

 

[Iconoclast]

It's not necessary to post another member - you can still make your point, as I did.
However, IF you use the name of the other member, please tag them in.

In this case I was referring to Iconoclast .
I'll repeat for his benefit...
Because Iconoclast "teaches" something or other, it is what HE believes to be true...
everyone else on this board does not have to agree with him.

Anybody on this board can feel free to use my name, call me names, or whatever makes you happy. I am not a snowflake. Anyone is encouraged to offer correction but it should be biblical

 

[GodsGrace]

Anybody on this board can feel free to use my name, call me names, or whatever makes you happy. I am not a snowflake. Anyone is encouraged to offer correction but it should be biblical

No A,
It's because this is a forum rule.
When someone is mentioned BY NAME, that person MUST be tagged.
It would be like speaking about another member behind his back.
This is not allowed.
BE A SNOWFLAKE! No name calling even at you!
We try to be nice here.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do, and in fact I quote your own words. I would never mis-represent anyone.

No, you did not. Unless I missed it?
You did post this;
[wondering said:
He created persons and He can allow or command persons to die for reasons that He DOES explain.}

If this was supposed to answer the question it has failed because the issue, the theology being discussed here was you questioned God as being Just, or not.

Yes. It was about God being just or not.
I basically said God could kill everyone of us tomorrow. It's His right to do so...He is sovereign over all.
He is God. He can do what He wants, I think were my exact words.

I question God as being a just God in reformed theology.
I just can't explain this again Icon. Really...

You raised the question, so I followed with this question which you dance around, because the theology you hold ,has no answer. The reformed theology and people do have answers, which you do not like.

Stop telling me what I like and don't like.
I answered you...I don't know what else to say.
What kind of an answer were you looking for?
Sorry I didn't say what you wanted me to say.
I don't dance around questions - I don't have much time - I just answer.

What theology do I hold that has no answer??
And yes, I don't like your answers much of the time and I tell you so.
No problem.

W... I do not mind if you get in my face, ask any questions, call me names, imply the theology I hold is falsehoods etc. I do not have thin skin. That being said...if you or anyone else is going to do things going against reformed teaching, then shrink back when questions come back at you, is that Just?

Huh?
When did I shrink back?
I could just not even be here, ya know?

I know you and no other non cal on here can answer what I asked you. The theology you post cannot answer it without contradiction.

What? I really don't know what you're talking about.
Want to ask me that all-important question again?
Wasn't it about the reason that God killed the Amalekites?
Men, women and children?
I replied that God could do what He wants to do.
They were destroyed to make way for the Israelites. (into Caanan and Israel).
It was just because God had His reason and His reason cannot be questioned.
He treated all the same and this also was just.

You want me to compare it to reformed theology maybe?
In reformed theology God is NOT just because He shows partiality and we don't even know why.

Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

1. God does NOT show partiality.
2. The man who fears Him and does what is right is welcomed to Him.
3. Any man who fears God is welcomed....not just some.

Also, Romans 2:11

This is in no way a personal attack at all, just the same as when you say what you do about reformed persons. That being said, when any person posts on issues, of necessity when a response is given on an issue...it many times is linked to the person.


Not possible

Not useless....like in tennis, they volley back and forth until one person cannot offer a return. I think that has happened here. You seem like a nice person but the theology you are holding on to is defective.

Maybe.
But I've learned from 3 different denominations and they all taught me the same theology...the study of God.
God is loving, merciful and just.

God cannot be separated from His character.

I quoted it. You said God does not have to explain when I ask you my questions, But I have to explain when you ask me.
Or you can expect me to answer but I should not expect you to do the same??? if you go on the offensive ,you need to answer. Why was it just to execute these people, even infants?

Because God felt it was the right thing to do.
Because He wanted to stop the A from attacking the Israelites.
Because He wanted to make room for them in Israel and the A were occupying the land God wanted for His peope.
Is that enough?

I have not done anything such as that. Post what you think i said, directly...

like I said..saying God does not have to explain is not valid. When you asked is it Just for God to send billions to hell and I just said...he does not have to explain, would that be a real answer???

NO!
That would not be a good answer and here's why...AGAIN...

In the gospel the good news is that even though man is fallen and separated from God, he can repent, believe in God and the sacrifice of Jesus, and become saved.
John 3:5,6
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
Romans 10:17
etc. etc.

God LET'S MAN KNOW what he MUST DO to become saved.
THIS is the GOOD NEWS.

In reformed theology God CHOOSES who will be saved and who will spend eternity in torment
AND HE DOESN'T TELL US WHY, because, as Calvin stated and the confessions, WE DO NOT KNOW WHY except it is for God's good pleasure.

THIS IS NOT JUST.
We've been thru this 20 X.
It's time to stop.

In reformed theology GOD IS partial to persons and we don't even know why.
The NT states that God IS NOT partial to persons.
Which is it?

Not always.

God has not revealed why, has He? I do know he only has to do what he agreed to in the Covenant of redemption.it is a Covenant salvation

Covenant of redemption?
Which covenant would that be?
Surely you must mean the New Covenant?

You even have your own names for the covenants.
BTW, the New Covenant and reformed theology DO NOT MIX.
I'd love to go through this.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast
Good night.
Drive carefully.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What exactly did I say that is ridiculous?
I'd be interested in knowing.

This is ridiculous.

Well, actually, catechisms and confessions are not supposed to be used in the THEOLOGY FORUM.

Reason it is ridiculous: Ah, so you would not have us use topical summaries of the Bible which quote scripture profusely as prepared by teachers of God for our edification. Yet, you advice based on, I don't know what. This is ridiculous.
Ridiculous: Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. synonym: foolish.
It is contrary to God's word: Proverbs 15:22 “Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established”
Gotquestions.org: "Having a multitude of counselors is valuable because hearing varied viewpoints gives us a healthier foundation upon which to form opinions. We make the soundest decisions when we have fully investigated the issue from many angles, sought the Lord’s wisdom".

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because He wanted to make room for them in Israel and the A were occupying the land God wanted for His peope.

Wow, your theology thinks it is just for a holy God to kill babies. Interesting.

I asked you where our depraved nature comes from.
It requires a simple answer.
If you don't care to answer it's fine...

Ah, I like to consider the "free-will" (non-reform) theory.

Theory 1:
Premise 1: each age of accountability individual has a choice to be depraved or not per Free Will (which is not in the bible)
Premise 2: God says all of mankind is depraved
Premise 3: To be fair each 'free willies' have to have 50/50 chance of picking to be depraved or not depraved via their 'free will'. Free will being self-created and outside of God's control as God value the sovereignty of man in such instances.
Conclusion: the odds of 10 people all picking to be depraved is 1 in 1024. There is, let's say 6 billion people reaching the age of accountability so the odds of that are 2 to the 5,000,000,000 power that they all picked to be depraved. (In layman's term ... no chance) Therefore, free will is false or there is another solution - see theory 2
Aside: those dying before reaching the age of accountability also don't have free will as they go to heaven or hell according to God's free will. God's free will in these cases does not take a back seat to the sovereignty of man.

Theory 2:
Premise 1: Adam had free will
Premise 2: Adam blew it (sinned)
Premise 3: Everyone after Adam was depraved because of Adam
Premise 4: God knew Adam would 'blow it'
Conclusion: Adam's free will nullified the free will of all those billions who came afterwards. Thus "free willism" is false save in Adam.
Given the odds of theory 1, this seems the superior Free Will theory.

Of course, God being all knowing knew that Adam would blow it. He could have created another (says Adam2 or Adam 3, whatever it took to have an Adam) that He knew would not use his 'free will' to sin. Theoretically, Adam's replacement could have saved all mankind although again sacrificing the 'free will' decision of his prodigy to determine to be depraved or not.
Aside: God being a loving God went with the first Adam knowing that billions of His loved ones would go to hell.

Pseudo logical hypotheticals of Non-reformed theology which also illlogically assumes God knows what nothing will do in the future.

I don't care what QotQuestions has to say about this...

Well, you've convinced me you don't seek the wisdom from other sources.

 

[Iconoclast]

Some people are so self righteousness they do not see the truths of grace because they look at everyone else, and accuse them of sin, but are blind to their own sinful judging.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes. It was about God being just or not.
I basically said God could kill everyone of us tomorrow. It's His right to do so...He is sovereign over all.
He is God. He can do what He wants, I think were my exact words.

I question God as being a just God in reformed theology.
I just can't explain this again Icon. Really...





Stop telling me what I like and don't like.
I answered you...I don't know what else to say.
What kind of an answer were you looking for?
Sorry I didn't say what you wanted me to say.
I don't dance around questions - I don't have much time - I just answer.

What theology do I hold that has no answer??
And yes, I don't like your answers much of the time and I tell you so.
No problem.



Huh?
When did I shrink back?
I could just not even be here, ya know?





What? I really don't know what you're talking about.
Want to ask me that all-important question again?
Wasn't it about the reason that God killed the Amalekites?
Men, women and children?
I replied that God could do what He wants to do.
They were destroyed to make way for the Israelites. (into Caanan and Israel).
It was just because God had His reason and His reason cannot be questioned.
He treated all the same and this also was just.

You want me to compare it to reformed theology maybe?
In reformed theology God is NOT just because He shows partiality and we don't even know why.

Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

1. God does NOT show partiality.
2. The man who fears Him and does what is right is welcomed to Him.
3. Any man who fears God is welcomed....not just some.

Also, Romans 2:11




Maybe.
But I've learned from 3 different denominations and they all taught me the same theology...the study of God.
God is loving, merciful and just.

God cannot be separated from His character.


Because God felt it was the right thing to do.
Because He wanted to stop the A from attacking the Israelites.
Because He wanted to make room for them in Israel and the A were occupying the land God wanted for His peope.
Is that enough?



NO!
That would not be a good answer and here's why...AGAIN...

In the gospel the good news is that even though man is fallen and separated from God, he can repent, believe in God and the sacrifice of Jesus, and become saved.
John 3:5,6
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
Romans 10:17
etc. etc.

God LET'S MAN KNOW what he MUST DO to become saved.
THIS is the GOOD NEWS.

In reformed theology God CHOOSES who will be saved and who will spend eternity in torment
AND HE DOESN'T TELL US WHY, because, as Calvin stated and the confessions, WE DO NOT KNOW WHY except it is for God's good pleasure.

THIS IS NOT JUST.
We've been thru this 20 X.
It's time to stop.

In reformed theology GOD IS partial to persons and we don't even know why.
The NT states that God IS NOT partial to persons.
Which is it?


Covenant of redemption?
Which covenant would that be?
Surely you must mean the New Covenant?

You even have your own names for the covenants.
BTW, the New Covenant and reformed theology DO NOT MIX.
I'd love to go through this.

How do you define a Covenant?

 

[Iconoclast]

It's not necessary to post another member - you can still make your point, as I did.
However, IF you use the name of the other member, please tag them in.

In this case I was referring to Iconoclast .
I'll repeat for his benefit...
Because Iconoclast "teaches" something or other, it is what HE believes to be true...
everyone else on this board does not have to agree with him.

Anybody on this board can feel free to use my name, call me names, or whatever makes you happy. I am not a snowflake. Anyone is encouraged to offer correction

Thank you for your reply.

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

I understood this to be a declaration that the Beloved has removed from ‘natural man’ all desire to seek His forgiveness; all desire to trust Him; and all desire to accept His offer of salvation.

I sought clarification, in Post 144: ‘Why is this?’

You reply:

‘Adam's fall has rendered us spiritually dead, unable in and of ourselves to commune with God as saints. Only new birth restores that. God does that to us.’ (my emphases).

‘Unable in and of ourselves’.

You will agree, I hope, that there is a difference between being ‘unable’ and being unwilling (‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

‘God does that to us’.

Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?

Blessings.

God makes sinners willing psalm110:3

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah, so you would not have us use topical summaries of the Bible which quote scripture profusely as prepared by teachers of God for our edification. Yet, you advice based on, I don't know what .... ridiculous.


Untrue .... simply use google ... here, I will help out those who seek truth

Hello Fredy,
A pleasure to interact with such an honorable man again. We have talked enough now that I have come to understand your thinking and emphasis. I will choose my words carefully not in fear of the moderators, but in the fear of the Lord and from a real love for you as a brother. Please do not read any derision in my words and if they were chosen badly, please feel free to correct them. I am open to correction because how else shall we learn when we are in error?

You place a great emphasis on reading what others have written about the scriptures. These are thought to be honorable men who sincerely sought to understand and we have no reason to doubt this. You have had time and resources to undertake this pursuit and have spent that time in study, an honorable pursuit reflective of your character. Many theologians and otherwise have also done the same feeling that they are standing on the shoulders of giants in their pursuit of a coherent (systematic) theology. Certainly this is an honorable pursuit.

I offer an alternative path to understanding the scripture that does not exclude the above pursuit but can augment it. I did not have the possibility of the study you did but I was tremendously blessed to have heard and observed godly men and women who knew God, understood his ways, and taught the way to come to this position of knowing Him. I offer to you John 17:3 where Jesus explained what Eternal life really is. I offer you Psalm 103:7 to see the difference between knowing Him and seeing what He did. Jeremiah 9:24 explains what God thinks of boasting about knowing Him. I have come to know God and had Him explain the scriptures to me which is a pretty mighty boast but it can be tested. The method that anyone can come by this is simple and God is not partial but will respond to anyone who follows this path. Isaiah 55:6 and John 14:21-24 John 8:31-32. This I have done to a sufficient degree in the eyes of God. It was done by stepping out is a deep desire to understand Him relying only upon Him for my material needs and direction. In short, I was a missionary dependent upon donations and often away from any books and input besides the Bible for months and years with only short holidays where I had both. I had only Him to depend upon and I learned the ways of God which requires obedience to His known will at the time. Do this and anyone can come to understand Him. He hides things from the wise and learned and reveals them to those dependent upon Him.

I do not need to be acknowledged as being in the right in the eyes of man but it is sufficient if I obey His ToS which supersede any other claim. It is before our own Master each of us will stand and give an answer as to the deeds (or words) done or spoken while in the body. So, maybe you would be willing to understand me. It would be a comfort.

You do not need to agree with me but it is nice if we all come to understand those with whom we disagree. As my position does not fit under any label, it is likely difficult, but hopefully this gives some insight.

Nice chatting with you Fredy. I know you will not attack me, which I can forgive and bear but it is not pleasant and I am more sorry for those who attack as they have the mud they threw on their fingers and heart.

 

[GodsGrace]

Close but not complete by any means.

Humans send themselves to hell by their own sinful "free will".

God ordains and orchestrates everything that comes to pass. There are too many Bible verses that show this very clearly.

God "allowed" sin to come about for His own Glory and purpose. The Bible does not say why. I will not question the Lord.

Grace and peace to you.

Is there a difference between your 3rd and 4th paragraphs?

IOW, do you see a difference between God
ORDAINING AND ORCHESTRATING
AND
GOD ALLOWING.

Is there a difference?