atpollard
Member
Sure thing.
Night.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Luke 7:30 examples of those who reject the purpose of God for themselves
- Thread starter Dorothy Mae
- Start date
Night.
Iconoclast
Member
The teaching of Romans 2 is very solid.
It is not however given as a teaching of a possible works salvation.
Nature and conscience allow men to have an incomplete knowledge , but not a saving knowledge.
That is easily proven ,even by Romans 10.9-17
Iconoclast
Member
Then, you mean, men DO have an excuse?!
Because you say so, does not make it so.A ludicrous suggestionreformed theology is all about the cross.
To be cont'd...but not with you.
You don't seem to take this discussion very seriously.
Iconoclast
Member
W...Romans 1 comes before romans 2;
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This is clearly declared. When we go a few verses further it does not change
Why are they without excuse?W...Romans 1 comes before romans 2;
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This is clearly declared. When we go a few verses further it does not change
You're soooooo confused.
Can't do this now.
Iconoclast
Member
Even the enemies of reformed brothers would not make this suggestion.
W....what I take serious are bible based interactions. You just saying taint so...is that really thinking that is serious?
You do not have to respond directly to me, I understand. I reserve the right to respond and expose caricatures.
I am not trying to hurt you or anyone else. I react to what is posted.
Can't do this now.
Good night.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm not saying that Romans 2:14-16 says men are saved by works.
I'm saying it shows us that the gospel message given to Abraham and recorded in the law, and fleshed out in the pages of our New Testaments is not the only testimony of the existence and justice of God by which men have faith and are acquitted on the Day of Christ.
The passage says these men who only have the testimony of God in nature and conscience are either condemned or acquitted on the Day of Christ "their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus" (Romans 2:15-16 BSB). So it most certainly is a knowledge of God upon which a person can either have faith, or not have faith, and be fairly judged on the Day of Christ. The passage says so.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I prefer 'enemies of reformed doctrine'.
atpollard
Member
With SOME posters that line of distinction is finer than with others (applies to some Reformed posters as well).
Yes and your statement perfectly sums up their mindset (stronghold).
They are followers of John Calvin and his teachings, therefore they reject the teachings of Jesus Christ… all the while claiming “you don’t understand”.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
In their “mind”, they systematically redefine the term “the world” to mean “the elect”.
This is done throughout the scriptures.
This is what Jesus said of those who added the teachings of man (traditions) to the word of God.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Matthew 23:15
JLB
atpollard
Member
... and that is why we claim "You don't understand."
We define "the elect" as "whoever believes in Him".
We define "the world" as "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" [Revelation 7:9-10 NKJV] because that is the world of people whom God so loved that he gave His Son to save ... the people in HELL are not saved, they perished!
Let's see if you understand, now.
Highway54
Member
One of my favorite verses Coop! Joshua really put it on the line didn't he? There are many gods the Bible states but like Johsua I too have chosen to serve Jehovah.
atpollard
Member
... and what choice did the rest of the nation make:
"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " [Matthew 15:7-9 NKJV] - from the lips of Jesus
[John 6:44-45 NKJV] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."
- God draws, or we do not come at all; everyone God draws, does come and will stay.
- That's the difference between Joshua and the hypocrites: spirit chooses spirit and flesh chooses flesh ... every time.
Iconoclast
Member
For (gar) is a marker of cause or reason positioned after a preceding clause and introducing the reason or cause for what has just been stated (see term of explanation) and here looks back not to Ro 2:13 but to Ro 2:12. Paul is explaining that the Gentiles also have a law so to speak by which they will be judged. Paul explains in this section that the Gentiles can be condemned without the law because their conscience (which is the work of the law written in their hearts) is enough to condemn them. As testimony to the truth of this principle, it is interesting to note that many of the unsaved pagan writers of Paul’s day referred to the "unwritten law" within man. Even these pagans recognized that there was something instinctively present within a man or a woman which tries to direct us in the right way. Remember that although all men are totally depraved in the sense that they cannot do anything that is righteously good, they can do a "man kind of good" like honoring their parents, paying their debts, etc. But every time they do that they prove that there is a law within them that points to that as good. Are they lost? Yes. Can they claim ignorance? No. As Paul pointed out in Romans 1, creation is around them proclaiming that God exists. In Romans 2 Paul is piling up the evidence against them, showing that by their conduct they prove that they have an inner moral law.
preceptaustin
Iconoclast
Member
Ray Stedman - Now, men are continually charging God with injustice because, they say, He condemns men to hell who have never heard of Jesus Christ. This is the most frequently voiced charge against the Christian gospel. We are always hearing somebody say, "Well, what about the heathen who never hear about Christ? How can a just God condemn them to hell without their hearing about Christ?" But, you see, God never condemns anybody on that basis. As we are told right here...That is, if you disobey the truth that you have, even though you have never heard of Moses or of Christ, you perish, not because you didn't hear of Moses or of Christ, but because you have disobeyed truth that you already know -- that is the whole point. If you know of Moses and of Christ, and you still disobey the truth, you perish also, because your condemnation is even greater -- because of the greater light involved. (Ed note: See above for discussion of the principle of judgment proportionate to light received) But, as it says here, even pagans have a form of basic law written on their hearts, and this is the basis of God's just condemnation of man. It is because they are not what they themselves know they ought to be. In other words, God judges you, not by some artificial standard of His, but by your own standard. (The Secrets of Men)
Iconoclast
Member
GENTILES WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW DO INSTINCTIVELY THE THINGS OF THE LAW: ethne ta me nomon echonta (PAPNPN) phusei ta tou nomou poiosin (3SPAS):
Gentiles who do not have the Law - That is they do not have the written Law as did the Jews (Ro 9:4). Without knowing the written Law of God, men and women in pagan societies by nature ("instinctively"), instinctively value and attempt to practice justice, honesty, compassion, goodness toward others, etc, this practice testifying to the fact that the divine law has been written in the heart of even the most primitive tribesman. While Paul says that a Gentile may by nature do the things contained in the law, he is very careful not to say that a Gentile could fulfill the requirements of the law by nature.
- The Gentiles who do not have the Law - Ro 2:12; 3:1,2; Dt 4:7; Ps 147:19,20; Acts 14:16; 17:30; Ep 2:12)
- Do instinctively Ro 2:27; Ro 1:19,20; 1Co 11:14; Php 4:8
- Romans 2 Resources - Multiple Sermons and Commentaries
Gentiles who do not have the Law - That is they do not have the written Law as did the Jews (Ro 9:4). Without knowing the written Law of God, men and women in pagan societies by nature ("instinctively"), instinctively value and attempt to practice justice, honesty, compassion, goodness toward others, etc, this practice testifying to the fact that the divine law has been written in the heart of even the most primitive tribesman. While Paul says that a Gentile may by nature do the things contained in the law, he is very careful not to say that a Gentile could fulfill the requirements of the law by nature.