Luke 7:30 examples of those who reject the purpose of God for themselves

[Jethro Bodine]

And interesting point unbelievers being graced without knowing Jesus.

They aren't unbelievers. They are people who believe God in regard to what is shown them by God through nature and conscience - Romans 2:14-16.

I think the Catholic Church still teaches that unbelievers can go to heaven especially when things presented a serious block to conversion while on earth .

There is no block to believing God while on earth.
There are limited revelations of God while on earth, but there are no blocks to believing God while on earth.
The term 'unbeliever' is relative to what level of knowledge a person has received and if that person rejected that knowledge.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The warnings against apostasy are for believers. Encouraging verses to persevere are for believers and church itself should focus on believers and our needs.

That is correct.
What matters is that one believe and keep believing.
Whether or not a person can stop believing and be lost again doesn't change that exhortation of scriptura one iota.
The church likes to major in minors.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That sounds very merciful and loving, but doesn’t that mean that God the Father killed His Son unnecessarily? I mean if SOME people can get to heaven without Jesus, then …

(That doesn’t seem so merciful and loving, does it?)

Abraham was justified without knowledge of Jesus. He believed in his limited revelation of the son of promise and was justified, nonetheless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if some of the elect are not able to become Christians?

Then they aren't of the elect.

Calvinism has tainted the word 'elect' so that so many Christians automatically think people are elect before they are even born. God knows ahead of time who will be chosen (elected), but that's called foreknowledge, not election.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe they were aborted or miscarried or profoundly brain damaged or kept in such horrible conditions in the world that conversion just wasn’t the cards?

There is a time after the Millennium when they will be judged - Revelation 20:7-10.
Take that for what it's worth.
The events and timetables of Revelation are hard to sort out. But that's where I see the untested in this life having the chance to be tested in the next life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Think about church going slave owners in 18th and 19th century southern states. We’re they elect but the people they enslaved who may only have had access to heavily edited bibles if anything at all were not?

You have to stop thinking of being elected as something determined by God before creation.
People are elected (chosen) when they have faith in God. In God's foreknowledge he already knows who will believe and be chosen. And those who he chooses are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

This is the non-Calvinistic understanding of these Biblical terms (election, foreknowledge, and predestination).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Think about church going slave owners in 18th and 19th century southern states. We’re they elect but the people they enslaved who may only have had access to heavily edited bibles if anything at all were not?

Slave owners and slaves were elect if and when they believed in God's promise of a Son, Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, the Pharisees were slaves to sin, and they exercised their free will by refusing to be baptised. Sadly, Calvinists deny free will, but it is there in all of us. Perhaps you should reconsider the sandy foundation on which Calvinism is built.
.

They used their self will which is bound by sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have to stop thinking of being elected as something determined by God before creation.
People are elected (chosen) when they have faith in God. In God's foreknowledge he already knows who will believe and be chosen. And those who he chooses are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

This is the non-Calvinistic understanding of these Biblical terms (election, foreknowledge, and predestination).

JB, That ias an unbiblical re creation of the terms. It is Fiction.

 

[Iconoclast]

Adam and Eve turned aside of their own free will.
People prefer darkness to the light. Their choice.
All turned aside. Their choice.
Jesus, for those who choose him, is the way to the light. Many reject Jesus out of choice.
Calvinism is the church of the blind.
.

The sin nature is the default position of natural men.You are blind not to see that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus saves, and we become a changed person from the heart outwards, reaching out to other people in a similar manner to Jesus and maybe the Good Samaterian, because we want to. This change of heart is the EVIDENCE of our salvation. No way can we save ourselves whatever we do.
.

Cooper, there is a blindness whereby those of that theology do not see. It is really true. They do not see.

 

[Cooper]

The important point here is they knowingly chose Satan in the face of the sure testimony of God on display in the life and ministry of Jesus. That's ultimately what made them accountable for the choice they made.

Yes, the Pharisees, Sadducees and others chose Satan. They killed the prophets, the disciples, and plotted the death of Jesus. Their 'works' identify them with the deceiver, and in the same way, the life of a Christian identifies us with Jesus. This happens when we invite the Saviour into our heart and life, Revelation 3:20 we follow Him, and we become a new creation in Him. The change that comes from within is a silent witness to a new life with Jesus Christ, manifested or made known in our everyday life, hence the scripture, 'by our works we are known' (not saved). It is the same for the wicked. They are also known for their works that can be seen in the troubles around the world. We need a revival, and it can begin right here.
.

 

[brightfame52]

Help me to not think that about Calvinism.

You need Gods help friend.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JB, That ias an unbiblical re creation of the terms. It is Fiction.

Show us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You need Gods help friend.

Are you able as God's servant to show me that Romans 2:14-16 does not talk about people who don't have the revelation of the gospel in the law and how they will be condemned or acquitted on the basis of the revelation of God they have received through nature and conscience alone?

 

[GodsGrace]

Abraham was justified without knowledge of Jesus. He believed in his limited revelation of the son of promise and was justified, nonetheless.

This is why we say that Jesus died for the whole world,,,,,for everyone.

Past persons, present and future.
His sacrifice extends even to the PAST.
ALL that are saved, are saved because of Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

JB, That ias an unbiblical re creation of the terms. It is Fiction.

Actually, it's what is taught by Christianity.
From the year 33AD, approx, to today.

 

[atpollard]

Abraham was justified without knowledge of Jesus. He believed in his limited revelation of the son of promise and was justified, nonetheless.

I am confused by your answer ... it feels like yes and no at the same time.

• WAS Abraham saved apart from the Atonement (Jesus' death on the cross)?
• IS the Atonement NECESSARY for the salvation of man?

 

[atpollard]

You have to stop thinking of being elected as something determined by God before creation.

Just take a sharpie and cross out Ephesians 1:4, that will help!

 

[GodsGrace]

I am confused by your answer ... it feels like yes and no at the same time.

• WAS Abraham saved apart from the Atonement (Jesus' death on the cross)?
• IS the Atonement NECESSARY for the salvation of man?

Read post 96.
I know you're asking the other member, but you wanna bet he'll agree?!

Why?

Because ALL Christians (Christians) agree except you know who,,,the reformed.

They believe differently.

In fact, in the reformed soteriological paradigm, we find it difficult to understand WHY the cross was necessary at all.