Is believing/faith a work ?

[gralanlinae]

Thats false. All conditions are included.

"Works of darkness" technically, are also mentioned. I hope to further discussion here, rather than criticize. Even I find it hard to avoid using universals in contexts where they can be misconstrued. To say "There is no Universal Truth", is a universal that nullifies itself; no truth means not any truth at all, in the context used at least in the USA. I am convinced God works through us, towards God's Will and ends, and we have the privilege of being his adopted children, so to say.

I believe there is no quality to human work done; even Jesus spoke of those condemned (goats and sheep) and the saving quality is Jesus knowing the person, not any "work" in particular. The Hebrew nation devolved into a long history of unfaithfulness, and God exposed it. Read Malachi if one wants a short read.

 

[Hopeful]

2 Peter 1:8.

You have to stop ignoring the scriptures that makes your sinless perfection doctrine impossible to be true. You are purposely ignoring plain scripture.

That is kind of an odd comment to make after posting the scripture showing how it is accomplished..."For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)

 

[Hopeful]

If you condition salvation on anything you do, believe, repent, water baptism, accepting Christ, its works and is contrary to Grace Salvation and is condemned.

I will follow my Shepherd's commands before I follow a man's doctrine.
Jesus said to preach repentance and remission of sins to the world, (Luke 24:47), something your doctrine wishes to stop.

 

[Hopeful]

That's right, and some have rejected it - 1 Timothy 1:19. The very thing you say a person with genuine saving faith can't do.

I wonder how many of Paul's audience were teetering on the edge of faithlessness when he wrote that letter.
Faith only works/performs as long as we have faith.

 

[Hopeful]

But he plainly said some did not heed - 1 Timothy 1:19.

Yeah?
Not everyone proclaiming their faith actually has the faith necessary for salvation.
Some, with a bit of encouragement and exhortation, will continue for their life-spans in faith.
Others are just short-timers, pulled away by temptation or danger.

 

[Hopeful]

Friend, you have not been sinlessly perfect for 16 years since believing.

Again?
State your findings or change the subject.

I'm glad you are off drugs and alcohol, but there's a lot more to living for God in obedience than being off drugs and getting water baptized.

You sure got that right.
First, it must be believed that it is possible "to live for God in obedience".
If you don't believe it can happen, what are the chances you will do so?
Zero !

 

[Hopeful]

You're being deceitful. It does not say, 'so that you do what you want'. It says 'so you do not do what you want'. Galatians 5:16-17.

I don't know why you think I said that?

Gal 5:17..." For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
You are seeing it from a different perspective than I.
Because I walk after/in the Spirit, I cannot do the things I would have done in the flesh.
Just as Gal 5:16 states.

 

[Hopeful]

The faith that made you do that justified you all by itself. Just as Abraham's faith justified him all by itself in Genesis 15:6. You are directly contending with plain scripture...again. Virtually all of your doctrinal beliefs defy plain scripture. And you don't seem to be able to bring yourself to acknowlege that even though it's being spelled out for you.

What does it matter, as long as I did what was necessary for the remission of my sins?
If I did NOT have the faith water baptism could do as "advertised", I wouldn't have done it.
I wasn't justified till after I was washed from my sins by the blood of Christ.
It is written..."Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom 5:9)

 

[Hopeful]

Because 'works of the law' for justification is being contrasted with believing in God's promise of forgiveness of sin for justification we know Paul is talking about any and all works not being able to justify except of course the very 'work' of believing he is contrasting all work with.

Water doesn't make you righteous. Obedience doesn't make you righteous. Only having your sin removed by faith in God's forgiveness can make you righteous in God's sight. Forgiveness is the only way you can be made righteous in God's sight.

"For with your heart you believe and are justified" Romans 10:10

Why can't you have faith that God's forgiveness of past sins is provided by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? (Acts 2:38)
Paul believed it when Ananias spoke to him in Acts 22:16...."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

 

[brother Paul]

I will follow my Shepherd's commands before I follow a man's doctrine.
Jesus said to preach repentance and remission of sins to the world, (Luke 24:47), something your doctrine wishes to stop.

I know! Why bother if it is already set in stone? Preach repentance all you want (to the deaf who can do nothing about it, not even respond because God determined them for hell),.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes. But the obedience that accompanies faith is not what justifies you.

Can one have faith and never use it or illustrate it?
We are justified by Jesus' blood, which is applied at our "immersion" into His death at water baptism.

 

[Hopeful]

No, you said the reward of faith can be revoked - gained then lost.

I'm not sure what the disagreement is here?
As long as a man has faith, he will benefit from that faith.
If he loses that faith, the benefits are gone.

 

[Hopeful]

It's not lying about repentance, lol. It's the child of God stumbling as they learn to walk in deeds commensurate with repentance - Acts 26:20.

Children of God's seed are as likely to bring forth the fruit of the devil as apple seeds are to bring forth pumpkins.

It would be pure hell going to a church where everybody thinks they must be perfect right out of the baptismal fount. What a horrible existence.

The hellish environment is one where Christ is preached but nobody follows Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

I know! Why bother if it is already set in stone? Preach repentance all you want (to the deaf who can do nothing about it, not even respond because God determined them for hell),.

Yep.
Jesus didn't say "go home and hide your faith, as most of the world will be doomed, with or without your efforts."
God wants all me to be saved, and faith cometh by hearing, from preachers.

I was once deaf, and now I hear, thanks be to God !

 

[brother Paul]

Children of God's seed are as likely to bring forth the fruit of the devil as apple seeds are to bring forth pumpkins.

The hellish environment is one where Christ is preached but nobody follows Christ.

For example look at Matthew 25:31-46! The goats are not like Jesus at all. They do not care about the poor, or that the hungry are not fed. Jesus healed all who came for help for free and worked to set the oppressed free. We are supposedly being conformed to His image an are told we are to emulate Him. Many today who call themselves Christians are not. Oh they are part of the Church doing all the churchianity stuff but in the end they were never really one of His (Matthew 25:1-13

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is kind of an odd comment to make after posting the scripture showing how it is accomplished..."For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:8)

'Abound' means the ever-creasing traits of the Spirit in the believer, not 100% perfection in them as you claim a true Christian starts out in from the baptismal fount.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder how many of Paul's audience were teetering on the edge of faithlessness when he wrote that letter.

Read the passage. We know there was at least two who had indeed not held on to faith Paul says to hang on to, Hymenaeus and Alexander:

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:19

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah?
Not everyone proclaiming their faith actually has the faith necessary for salvation.
Some, with a bit of encouragement and exhortation, will continue for their life-spans in faith.
Others are just short-timers, pulled away by temptation or danger.

Then you're saying Paul is telling us to hold on to faith that is not actually the faith necessary for salvation.

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 1 Timothy 1:19

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, it must be believed that it is possible "to live for God in obedience".
If you don't believe it can happen, what are the chances you will do so?
Zero !

Christians are taught by God to grow up into the image and stature of Jesus. We don't start out that way:

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching

Ephesians 4:13-14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again?
State your findings or change the subject.

Your claim that all true Christians are 100% sinless from the moment they believe has no observable precedent in history for it to be considered a truth of Christianity. Besides, I've shown you several verses of scripture that talk about true Christian increasing in obedience to the Spirit, instantly destroying any claim that all true Christian start out 100% sinless or they aren't really born again. It's a ridiculous claim.