Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

Call it a work if you want. The point is it's not among the works that can not justify. That's the point here that evades you for some reason. The works gospel is not defined by 'any and all things you can possibly do'. It just isn't!

It's a work since you say it's a condition you do inorder for God to save/justify you and forgive you of your sins. It's a denial of Christ also!

 

[brightfame52]

I clearly did NOT condition Salvation on any such thing. I clearly stated that Salvation is 100% God's doing. What I said was that IF Total Depravity means Absolute Incapability it is Un-Biblical. We are made in the image of God and can choose but since the fall none of us would choose rightly unto Salvation, However when God urges us, initiates, draws us if you will, we make an initial choice to move in His direction, heeding His call, or we do not. That is very different from the slant you paint me as. Even sinners and atheists can do good and make moral choices (though incapable of getting saved by such actions).

John Calvin was a brilliant theologian and of great value to us all, however, he took Augustine's treatise on Against Pelagius too far and fell into error. He should have (but perhaps it was not available to him) read Augustine's own refutation against this extreme (of which there are two) in his following treatise called On Grace and Free Will, which addresses the error that Calvin fell into.

Augustine, On Grace and Free Will
Chapter 1

“With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavor to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him (like Pelagius), and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us.

But since there are SOME persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended (like Calvinists), I have determined to write somewhat on this point…
(parentheses mine)

Chapter 2

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine...the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards...

Chapter 3

There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God (believing they are elect thus anything they do, even the abominable, is the will of God). The Apostle James says to such: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. James 1:13-15 Solomon, too, in his book of Proverbs, has this answer for such...The folly of a man spoils his ways; but he blames God in his heart. Proverbs 19:3 And in the book of Ecclesiasticus we read: Say not, It is through the Lord that I fell away; for you ought not to do the things that He hates: nor say, He has caused me to err; for He has no need of the sinful man.(parentheses mine)

Chapter 4

What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will?
...with numberless other passages of the inspired Scriptures of the Old Testament. And what do they all show us but the free choice of the human will? So, again, in the evangelical and apostolic books of the New Testament...As you have a readiness to will, so also let there be a prompt performance; 2 Corinthians 8:11...Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of Free Will

No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27”

And there is so much more here. So finally (at this juncture) when Calvin would say that God created the evil people to do exactly the evil they did, then He is saying they did His will.

If you condition any part of salvation on what you do, it's works salvation and denies Christ!

 

[brightfame52]

"Works of darkness" technically, are also mentioned. I hope to further discussion here, rather than criticize. Even I find it hard to avoid using universals in contexts where they can be misconstrued. To say "There is no Universal Truth", is a universal that nullifies itself; no truth means not any truth at all, in the context used at least in the USA. I am convinced God works through us, towards God's Will and ends, and we have the privilege of being his adopted children, so to say.

I believe there is no quality to human work done; even Jesus spoke of those condemned (goats and sheep) and the saving quality is Jesus knowing the person, not any "work" in particular. The Hebrew nation devolved into a long history of unfaithfulness, and God exposed it. Read Malachi if one wants a short read.

Hi I don't see your point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's a work since you say it's a condition you do inorder for God to save/justify you and forgive you of your sins. It's a denial of Christ also!

So what must I do to be saved then?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Children of God's seed are as likely to bring forth the fruit of the devil as apple seeds are to bring forth pumpkins.

What 'fruit' are we to confess to one another and pray about so we may be healed? James 5:16

 

[jaybo]

For example look at Matthew 25:31-46! The goats are not like Jesus at all. They do not care about the poor, or that the hungry are not fed. Jesus healed all who came for help for free and worked to set the oppressed free. We are supposedly being conformed to His image an are told we are to emulate Him. Many today who call themselves Christians are not. Oh they are part of the Church doing all the churchianity stuff but in the end they were never really one of His (Matthew 25:1-13

Why do you (and others) make statements like "Many today who call themselves Christians are not"? Who are you to judge and condemn those whom Jesus has called to Himself. Be very careful; you may be judged by the Lord for your bad attitude.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi
If we know it was not by any works of righteousness we have done.

Then whose?

If you answer Jesus's works then consider:

Jesus believed His father and If all He did was believe without going to the cross then we would still be in ours sins.

So believe is not a work of righteousness
but the way of righteousness.



TITUS 3:5

Great point!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why do you (and others) make statements like "Many today who call themselves Christians are not"? Who are you to judge and condemn those whom Jesus has called to Himself. Be very careful; you may be judged by the Lord for your bad attitude.

While I don't think that we should make 'judging' others our Christian past time, the Bible does tell us to consider those who do not live according to the faith and who do not respond to correction as unsaved/not born again:

7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.

10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:7-10 BSB


11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 5:11,5 BSB


15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


Based on scripture, I not only consider 'judging' others in the church a right, but a duty. It's important to keep the body free of stumbling blocks. The church stopped doing that. Look at where we're at because of that negligence.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wasn't justified till after I was washed from my sins by the blood of Christ.

No, you were justified (made righteous) when you believed, just as that happened for Abraham in Genesis 15:6.

You showed yourself to be righteous through faith when you obeyed God, just as Abraham did in Genesis 22:12.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are seeing it from a different perspective than I.
Because I walk after/in the Spirit, I cannot do the things I would have done in the flesh.
Just as Gal 5:16 states.

That is certainly true. You can't walk in the Spirit and the flesh at the same time because they are diametrically opposed to each other. That's why we're told to walk in the Spirit...so we won't gratify the desires of the flesh.

What you are refusing to see in Galatians 5:16-17 is that it is because of the flesh that you don't always walk in the Spirit doing the the thing that you want to do. But you are insisting the flesh is not able to do that in true believers because it is dead. But Paul is stating quite clearly it happens and why.

This opposition of the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit only happens in people who have the Spirit - believers! Believers don't do what they want (when that happens) because of the flesh. The flesh you erroneosly assert can't ever do that in the believer because it is dead. Paul says otherwise
You're ignoring it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why can't you have faith that God's forgiveness of past sins is provided by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? (Acts 2:38)
Paul believed it when Ananias spoke to him in Acts 22:16...."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Because the whole counsel of God's word shows me that it's actually one's faith that solicits the imputation of God's righteousness, all by itself, apart from the performance of righteous rituals and works. Just as that was true for Abraham, our example (Romans 4:23-24).

 

[Hopeful]

For example look at Matthew 25:31-46! The goats are not like Jesus at all. They do not care about the poor, or that the hungry are not fed. Jesus healed all who came for help for free and worked to set the oppressed free. We are supposedly being conformed to His image an are told we are to emulate Him. Many today who call themselves Christians are not. Oh they are part of the Church doing all the churchianity stuff but in the end they were never really one of His (Matthew 25:1-13

That's a pity, isn't it.

 

[Hopeful]

'Abound' means the ever-creasing traits of the Spirit in the believer, not 100% perfection in them as you claim a true Christian starts out in from the baptismal fount.

As the scrip' was about growth in our knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, your comment is not in context.
I really don't believe you think apple seeds can bring forth pumpkins, but if you do, we need not communicate further..

 

[Hopeful]

Read the passage. We know there was at least two who had indeed not held on to faith Paul says to hang on to, Hymenaeus and Alexander:

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Timothy 1:19

That's right.

 

[Hopeful]

Then you're saying Paul is telling us to hold on to faith that is not actually the faith necessary for salvation.

19holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 1 Timothy 1:19

He is telling them/us not to fall away into sin or any other manifestation of unbelief.

 

[Hopeful]

Christians are taught by God to grow up into the image and stature of Jesus. We don't start out that way:

13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching

Ephesians 4:13-14

You can't become a ripe peach if you start out from the seed of a fig.
Those reborn of God's seed will only bring forth the fruit of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Your claim that all true Christians are 100% sinless from the moment they believe has no observable precedent in history for it to be considered a truth of Christianity. Besides, I've shown you several verses of scripture that talk about true Christian increasing in obedience to the Spirit, instantly destroying any claim that all true Christian start out 100% sinless or they aren't really born again. It's a ridiculous claim.

As the Lord won't challenge us above what we can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), the load we bear can increase over time.
But we are equipt at rebirth to only bring forth one Seed's fruit.

 

[Hopeful]

That is certainly true. You can't walk in the Spirit and the flesh at the same time because they are diametrically opposed to each other. That's why we're told to walk in the Spirit...so we won't gratify the desires of the flesh.

As the "flesh" of the reborn is already destroyed, (Rom 6:6 Gal 5:24), the fight you allude to is a false one.
Constant reminders to keep it dead are not uncalled for.

What you are refusing to see in Galatians 5:16-17 is that it is because of the flesh that you don't always walk in the Spirit doing the the thing that you want to do. But you are insisting the flesh is not able to do that in true believers because it is dead. But Paul is stating quite clearly it happens and why.

The "flesh" is dead...in those crucified with Christ..
It has no power...in the believer.

This opposition of the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit only happens in people who have the Spirit - believers! Believers don't do what they want (when that happens) because of the flesh. The flesh you erroneosly assert can't ever do that in the believer because it is dead. Paul says otherwise
You're ignoring it.

Believers don't do what the "flesh" wants, as the "flesh" has been destroyed. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believers don't do what the "flesh" wants, as the "flesh" has been destroyed. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

Paul says they do - Galatians 5:17.

This is the plain verse you keep evading and twisting to serve your 'sinless perfection' belief.

 

[Hopeful]

Because the whole counsel of God's word shows me that it's actually one's faith that solicits the imputation of God's righteousness, all by itself, apart from the performance of righteous rituals and works. Just as that was true for Abraham, our example (Romans 4:23-24).

I agree.
If one doesn't have faith that water baptism will remit their past sins, their sins will not be remitted.
As it is written..."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" (Rom 3:25)
And..."...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)
And..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11)

God is soooo wonderful !