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Phoneman777 said:
Look, if it were not for the papacy chaining Bibles to the pulpit, refusing to translate them into language of the common people, censoring anyone who would possess a Bible in the "vulgar tongue", etc., for century after century, we wouldn't see anywhere near the disagreement there is over what the Bible is believed to teach. We've only been recovering for 350 years from the papacy's 1,260 year war of destruction against God's word and Christianity.

Please, I'd love nothing more than to hear what you think are Protestant "contradictory" doctrines.
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Let's be honest Phoneman...there are contradictory Protestant doctrine.

As for the translation of the bible:

Here are some dates of translations into vernacular languages before Martin Luther printed his German translation.:
By 400AD translations existed in Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Georgian Languages.
405 Jerome’s translation in the Latin (common language of the Roman Empire in the West).
406 Translation into Armenian
7th Century – First translation into French, First translation into German.
8th Century – first translation into English (Anglo Saxon) by Bede
9th Century – first translation into the Slavic language by Cyril and Methodius
1170 –Eadwine's Psalterium triplex, which contained the Latin versions of the Psalms accompanied by Anglo-Norman and Anglo-Saxon English language renderings.
13thcentury – first translation into Spanish under King AlfonsoV
1300 - first translation into Norwegian
1454 – Catholic Gutenberg produced the first printed Bibles (in Latin)
1466 – first printed German Bible , 58 years before Luther’s
1470 – first printed Scandanvian Bible
1477 – first printed Italian Bible In the years before Luther's Bible was published, the Catholics printed 20 different Italian editions of the Bible.
1475 – first printed Dutch Bible
1466 – first printed French Bible

All Catholic Bibles, and yet the claim is that the Catholics Church suppressed the translation of the Bible into the vernacular.
source: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm
 
Phoneman777 said:
Look, if it were not for the papacy chaining Bibles to the pulpit,
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Yes, in early times , sometimes Bibles were chained to pulpits - to stop theft.
They were very valuable. In medieval times books in libraries were chained for the the same reason.
Some of these chained libraries still exist in England.

The invention of the moveable type printing press is attributed to Gutenberg at around 1450. His first book off the press in 1455 was a Bible. The cost was almost a years wages for a master craftsman (in paper – 2 years wages for the parchment version). The earlier, hand copied versions of Bibles were much more costly.

Chaining them to a pulpit made them available to those that could read - and not many could - but stopped them from being stolen.
 
SyrianMariam said:
On why people can go to heaven without actually becoming a member of the Catholic Church?
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The Catholic Church does not say that only Catholics can go to heaven.

At the Second Vatican Council there was a document called Lumen Gentium which stated:
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.

Going back to th13th century one of greatest theologians of the Catholic Church, Thomas Aquinas, stated in his Summa Thelogica concerning those who died before receiving baptism:
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
 
SyrianMariam said:
You guess? You don't sound confident. Does the Catholic Church have an official position on this?
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Everyone is saved by faith.
Everyone.
In the OT, the NT and, believe it or not, in the CC.

The official position of the CC is that everyone is saved by faith in God.
 
Mungo said:
I'm not denying you your opinion.
I just said it was "so broad and vague as to be meaningless".
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I never said you were... but you are trying to censor my opinion by calling me a troll and quoting ToS.
Mungo said:
And I'm entitled to my opinion.
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I never said your opinion was not entitled.

Mungo said:
Yes, your truth, not the truth
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And remember that the two are not mutually exclusive.
It is altogether possible for my truth to be the truth.
I didn't make that claim though.
 
Mungo said:
The Catholic Church does not say that only Catholics can go to heaven.

At the Second Vatican Council there was a document called Lumen Gentium which stated:
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ.

Going back to th13th century one of greatest theologians of the Catholic Church, Thomas Aquinas, stated in his Summa Thelogica concerning those who died before receiving baptism:
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
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So the council decides who gets to go to heaven? Is that not God's choice?
 
Mungo said:
How do you derive that from what I posted?

And please answer my question. When did Christ's Church start?
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Start... how about Adam.
Would you not say that someone who walked and talked with God Almighty would count as being part of Christ's Church?
 
wondering said:
I don't believe the CC believes it's above the bible.

It does believe in
The bible
Tradition
The magesterium

I'd say in that order.
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"Sunday is our MARK of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." - The Catholic Record​

BTW, I fully respect the catholic church's position. Catholic leaders believe they've been granted a Godly commission to operate as they do, and - though I fully disagree - applaud many catholics, especially those connected with charity work, for doing what they believe is God's work.

It's modern day "Protestantism" that disgusts me...they've taken the grand, glorious, God-ordained Protestant Reformation Movement and turned it into a weak, loathsome, ecumenical shell of its former self. It shouts, "Sola Scriptura", yet can't find a single verse authorizing the setting aside of 7th day Sabbath and the sanctification of Sunday, to which the quote above from the Catholic Record is a rebuke and an embarrassment.
 
Mungo said:
The Catholic Church does not claim "the church is above the Bible".
The Catholic Church does not believe that "if the Holy Scriptures and the word of the pope conflict one with another, "the Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside".
You provide no evidence for either claim.

Can I remind you of TOS 1.4 Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith.
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"Sunday is our MARK of authority. The church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." - Catholic Record​

Can I ask how long it is that you've been familiarizing yourself with catholicism?
 
Mungo said:
Completely untrue and without evidence.
Can I remind you of TOS 1.4 Do not state a negative opinion about a member's denomination, leaders, founders, or the veracity of a member's faith.

P.S. For your information I will start a thread in this forum showing the numerous translations into the vernacular from very early times.
Update: see - Did the Catholic Church Forbid Translation of The Bible?
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Can I remind you of the difference between fact and opinion?

I'm presenting facts - not opinions - and provided a quote from pope Innocent III himself. Facts in and of themselves are benign - neither negative or positive.

Also, here's a link to an earlier post detailing the same sentiments:

Was Bible possesion banned by the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church actually tried to stop laymen from possessing or reading the Bible on their own and this intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages. Many try to deny it, or say there is no proof...
www.christianforums.com www.christianforums.com


No TOS violations to be found in my posts, friend.
 
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dwb001 said:
If you want someones answer and not others... don't ask on an open forum.
That is what private chats are for.
Otherwise be prepared for an answer from any quarter.
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Like I said - if you want to give your opinion, go ahead.
 
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