Question on the perspective of God as a result of Calvinist doctrine

[Fastfredy0]

And I say you have a Salvation by works issue, and only the Grace and Mercy of God can deliver you.

Say what you want. You don't understand the process or can't articulate it properly. You don't answer many of my question for clarity, so I give up.

 

[brightfame52]

The answer for salvation, like so many of the BIG THINGS of God is …
“Already and Not Yet”.

Our SALVATION has (present tense) a simultaneous PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE aspect to it.

• PAST: God chose, purposed, made His plan, wrote names in the Book of Life before the foundation of the Earth. We were already saved in Christ before God said “Let there be light”. This “settled position” of God’s plan and purpose did not prevent the incarnation or the crucifixion or the resurrection. Around the First Century AD, we were also SAVED [past tense and again] in the finished work of Christ. Thus we were saved before we were ever born; before our great grandparents were born. “ALREADY”
• PRESENT: Our status as having been “ALREADY SAVED” in no way prevented us from being born fallen and under the curse common to mankind. It did not exempt us from the status of “dead” and “enemy” described in Ephesians 2:1-3. Therefore, at some point between OUR birth and death, we were also “SAVED” [present tense] and Born from above and made a new man and given a new heart and sealed with His Holy Spirit as a “deposit guaranteeing an inheritance”. We ARE SAVED and have God’s Law written on our hearts. We are His masterwork with good works to do that He prepared in advance for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10). We are being SANCTIFIED, becoming transformed more like Christ and having our faith FINISHED and PERFECTED. Thus we are at present both SAVED and BEING SAVED in the unfolding miracle of Already and Not Yet.
• FUTURE: What we will become, we are not yet. However, our FUTURE GLORIFICATION is as certain as our selection according to the immutable plan of God according to the purpose of His desire was. He who has BEGUN a good work, WILL COMPLETE His good work in us. So we are NOT YET as saved as we will one day be. We will one day be GLORIFIED and we will be eternally WITH HIM, perfected in His presence and perfectly fit for the purpose of praising Him.

ALREADY and NOT YET.
The Baptist answer to that question.

Is a person that Christ died for Justified before God by His death while they are unbelievers ? Yes or No

 

[brightfame52]

Say what you want. You don't understand the process or can't articulate it properly. You don't answer many of my question for clarity, so I give up.

I understand that you condition salvation on man, which is works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I understand that you condition salvation on man, which is works.

I understand that you don't understand what I am saying. We're wasting time trying.

 

[brightfame52]

I understand that you don't understand what I am saying. We're wasting time trying.

I understand you condition salvation on works, the act of man, no matter how you may try to spin it

 

[atpollard]

Is a person that Christ died for Justified before God by His death while they are unbelievers ? Yes or No

Was that person justified before the foundation of the world? Yes or no.

(I thought my answer was both CLEAR and THOROUGH … there is more to SALVATION than just being Justified. That’s why theologians and scripture include words like predestined and sanctified and glorified.)

 

[atpollard]

Before God began creating the heaven, earth, the universe, and man He saw His elect in eternity as saved persons/people. Always has. He contemplated His elect as saved individuals. That's the only way God can see them.

Now, everyone, go have your supper and come back here for more Biblical truth from a Biblical Christian.

Me.

Apparently you got it wrong, too. “Yes” was the only correct answer for brightfame52 .

 

[jeremiah1five]

Apparently you got it wrong, too. “Yes” was the only correct answer for brightfame52 .

In the Mind of God in eternity where He contemplated His Elect we were all justified.

We became sinners by virtue of creation.

Now He is Redeeming His Elect in TIME.

But in the Mind of God were DEEMED.

That's why He's called REdeemer.

 

[Hopeful]

Cool with me ... he will strongly disagree.
Are you Catholic? (They hold that sort of view of justification/sanctification/salvation.)

Not any more.
I have been free since 2004.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus Christ. The same yesterday today and for ever.
Thus, yes, you can determine your salvation past present future.

You can if you are aware that sinning dooms your future.
That tends to keep people enduring faithfully until their end.

 

[atpollard]

In the Mind of God in eternity where He contemplated His Elect we were all justified.

We became sinners by virtue of creation.

Now He is Redeeming His Elect in TIME.

But in the Mind of God were DEEMED.

That's why He's called REdeemer.

Too many words … he wanted a YES or NO. ?
(For what it’s worth, I agree with what you wrote … but it wasn’t my question.)

 

[Hopeful]

The answer for salvation, like so many of the BIG THINGS of God is …
“Already and Not Yet”.

Our SALVATION has (present tense) a simultaneous PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE aspect to it.

• PAST: God chose, purposed, made His plan, wrote names in the Book of Life before the foundation of the Earth. We were already saved in Christ before God said “Let there be light”. This “settled position” of God’s plan and purpose did not prevent the incarnation or the crucifixion or the resurrection. Around the First Century AD, we were also SAVED [past tense and again] in the finished work of Christ. Thus we were saved before we were ever born; before our great grandparents were born. “ALREADY”
• PRESENT: Our status as having been “ALREADY SAVED” in no way prevented us from being born fallen and under the curse common to mankind. It did not exempt us from the status of “dead” and “enemy” described in Ephesians 2:1-3. Therefore, at some point between OUR birth and death, we were also “SAVED” [present tense] and Born from above and made a new man and given a new heart and sealed with His Holy Spirit as a “deposit guaranteeing an inheritance”. We ARE SAVED and have God’s Law written on our hearts. We are His masterwork with good works to do that He prepared in advance for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10). We are being SANCTIFIED, becoming transformed more like Christ and having our faith FINISHED and PERFECTED. Thus we are at present both SAVED and BEING SAVED in the unfolding miracle of Already and Not Yet.
• FUTURE: What we will become, we are not yet. However, our FUTURE GLORIFICATION is as certain as our selection according to the immutable plan of God according to the purpose of His desire was. He who has BEGUN a good work, WILL COMPLETE His good work in us. So we are NOT YET as saved as we will one day be. We will one day be GLORIFIED and we will be eternally WITH HIM, perfected in His presence and perfectly fit for the purpose of praising Him.

ALREADY and NOT YET.
The Baptist answer to that question.

I agreed with most of that, but disagree with..."We are being sanctified".
I was sanctified when the atoning, sanctifying, justifying, blood of Christ washed away my past sins.
I couldn't get any more clean, holy, justified, consecrated, or set apart.
And I continued from that perfect point to grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You can if you are aware that sinning dooms your future.
That tends to keep people enduring faithfully until their end.

There is no way anyone - even ourselves - can be snatched from the hand of God:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Jn. 10:28–29.

Eternal life is just that: ETERNAL life.

That is a Promise from God.

All the sins of His Elect have been propitiated and atoned.

Even future ones.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agreed with most of that, but disagree with..."We are being sanctified".
I was sanctified when the atoning, sanctifying, justifying, blood of Christ washed away my past sins.
I couldn't get any more clean, holy, justified, consecrated, or set apart.
And I continued from that perfect point to grow in grace and knowledge.

Justification is an act of God.

Sanctification is a lifelong process.

 

[atpollard]

I agreed with most of that, but disagree with..."We are being sanctified".
I was sanctified when the atoning, sanctifying, justifying, blood of Christ washed away my past sins.
I couldn't get any more clean, holy, justified, consecrated, or set apart.
And I continued from that perfect point to grow in grace and knowledge.

I think this is one of those areas where Catholics (including former Catholics) and Protestants use the same words but have different meanings. “Set apart” is one meaning of “sanctified”, but in Protestant Theology it is the term used to describe the ongoing process of being made more Christ-like. We are JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ at the moment of our salvation, we are SANCTIFIED throughout our life as God “knocks off the rough edges” and we are GLORIFIED when we die and God makes us perfect. That was what I meant by those terms. The whole process of JUSTIFICATION + SANCTIFICATION + GLORIFICATION is called “SAVED” by some groups, while other groups say “SAVED” and mean only “JUSTIFIED”.

It gets confusing if we don’t define our terms (and I got lazy and sloppy with my use of terms.)

 

[Hopeful]

I think this is one of those areas where Catholics (including former Catholics) and Protestants use the same words but have different meanings. “Set apart” is one meaning of “sanctified”, but in Protestant Theology it is the term used to describe the ongoing process of being made more Christ-like. We are JUSTIFIED by the blood of Christ at the moment of our salvation, we are SANCTIFIED throughout our life as God “knocks off the rough edges” and we are GLORIFIED when we die and God makes us perfect. That was what I meant by those terms. The whole process of JUSTIFICATION + SANCTIFICATION + GLORIFICATION is called “SAVED” by some groups, while other groups say “SAVED” and mean only “JUSTIFIED”.

It gets confusing if we don’t define our terms (and I got lazy and sloppy with my use of terms.)

The false churches will do anything to delay conversion,-sanctification.
They are in the business of accommodating sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Was that person justified before the foundation of the world? Yes or no.

(I thought my answer was both CLEAR and THOROUGH … there is more to SALVATION than just being Justified. That’s why theologians and scripture include words like predestined and sanctified and glorified.)

Is a person that Christ died for Justified before God by His death while they are unbelievers ? Yes or No

 

[atpollard]

Is a person that Christ died for Justified before God by His death while they are unbelievers ? Yes or No

No.

Romans 3:28 [NASB] For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 5:1 [NASB] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 [NASB] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.

Galatians 3:24 [NASB] Therefore the Law has become our guardian [to lead us] to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

James 2:24 [NASB] You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

• We are justified by His blood, but according to GOD, not by Blood Alone.
• We are justified by FAITH, also a gift from God, but not by Faith Alone.
• The sort of FAITH that comes from GOD rather than MAN is not a "dead" (inert) Faith, but an active and obedient Faith that DOES walk in the good works which God prepared in advanced (Ephesians 2:10).

If you will not believe me, then at least consider the words of God before responding with a "Taint So".
(Sola Scriptura means that THEOLOGY never trumps The WORD.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Is a person that Christ died for Justified before God by His death while they are unbelievers ? Yes or No

The keyword is “that Christ died for.”
THAT person is justified and declared “not guilty!”
Justification is part of what theologians call ordo salutis Latin for the order of salvation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I understand you condition salvation on works, the act of man, no matter how you may try to spin it

You have faith. It is something you do, you believe. It is a work. Logically, you believe you are saved by works.
This is your logic. You should know you are NOT saved by works, but your logic has you saved by works but your mind can't see the logic and thinks you are not saved by works. You are confused IMO.

I have faith. It is something I did/do, I believe. It is a work. I am not saved by works because God did the work to cause me to believe.