The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

[Paul River]

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

The persecution of the saints Jesus was talking about in the gospel takes place in Israel.
It's not worldwide.

 

[hawkman]

We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Truly I see no rapture in these verses . What is see is reaping with a sharp sickle !

It is Jesus that does part of the reaping Rev14:16 , the sickle is being used as an instrument of judgement upon the ones who worship the beast . We see the results in this verse .

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[Paul River]

Truly I see no rapture in these verses . What is see is reaping with a sharp sickle !
It is Jesus that does part of the reaping Rev14:16 , the sickle is being used as an instrument of judgement upon the ones who worship the beast . We see the results in this verse .
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

There are two separate harvests here in Revelation 14:14-20, hawkman. After Messiah has returned to earth in Rev 14:1 for his second coming, together with the 144,000; and the antichrist has made his appearance in Revelation 13, it is time for the rapture. Revelation 14:14-20 is the wheat and wine offering and the redemption of the church before the wrath of God is unfolded in Revelation 16.

 

[hawkman]

There are two separate harvests here in Revelation 14:14-20, hawkman. After Messiah has returned to earth in Rev 14:1 for his second coming, together with the 144,000; and the antichrist has made his appearance in Revelation 13, it is time for the rapture.

The "harvest" spoken of in Rev14:14-20 is the same as spoken of in Joel 3:13 , the sickle is being used on the wicked not the righteous .

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

 

[hawkman]

Revelation 14:14-20 is the wheat and wine offering and the redemption of the church before the wrath of God is unfolded in Revelation 16.

In verse Rev14:19 it says "great winepress of the wrath of God "

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

And we see the results of the winepress in the next verse "blood came out of the winepress" , and you say "wheat and wine offering" ? ! ?

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[JLB]

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Here we see plainly that the Ressurrection and Rapture take place at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

The other thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



Please meditate on these things and the Lord will give you understanding.




JLB

 

[JLB]

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Amen.

 

[hawkman]

Here we see plainly that the Ressurrection and Rapture take place at His coming.

In chapter Rev14 ? Which verse is His coming ?

 

[JLB]

In chapter Rev14 ? Which verse is His coming ?

Brother,

His coming isn't until Revelation 19:11-16

The dead in Christ returning with Him —

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16


As Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4 —

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14



The word of the Lord —


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

The other thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

 

[hawkman]

Brother,

His coming isn't until Revelation 19:11-16

The dead in Christ returning with Him —

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16


As Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 4 —

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14



The word of the Lord —


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

The other thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8





JLB

Ok I see Jesus coming back in verses above but where is the rapture of the believers going up in what you wrote above ?

 

[JLB]

Ok I see Jesus coming back in verses above but where is the rapture of the believers going up in what you wrote above ?

The Rapture is for those who are alive and remain on earth.

He is returning with the dead in Christ in Revelation 19, so they may receive their resurrected bodies, then those who are alive and remain on earth will be caught up TOGETHER (key word) with them.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14




JLB

 

[Randy]

There are two separate harvests here in Revelation 14:14-20, hawkman. After Messiah has returned to earth in Rev 14:1 for his second coming, together with the 144,000; and the antichrist has made his appearance in Revelation 13, it is time for the rapture. Revelation 14:14-20 is the wheat and wine offering and the redemption of the church before the wrath of God is unfolded in Revelation 16.

The harvest is trustworthy however the sequence is in question. The harvest of the unrighteous is shown as well prior to the bowl judgments. Just as in the days of the sounding of the 7th trump of God with the kingdoms of the world becoming the kingdoms of God and His Christ is also shown before the bowl judgments which are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The beast that is freed from the Abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God. The one who overpowers and kills Gods two witnesses, (rev 11:7), and is granted 42 months of reign,(rev 13:15), and is not destroyed or defeated by human power but by the coming of Jesus. Rev 16:15. The 5th to the 7th trump calls seem to run concurrently with the bowl judgments with plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. So sometimes the sequence of events is not so clear cut.

This is a coming of the Lord at the very end and the beast and his armies, visible and invisible, take their stand against Jesus and the armies of heaven that follow Him. We know who wins that great battle and that judgment is pronounced in favor of the saints who the world in those days is deceived by the beast in condemning the saints for they refuse to bow down and worship the beast. They will be shocked and surprised. But the saints will be filled with great everlasting joy.
Revelation 16:14-15
Post trib.
New International Version
14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

[Paul River]

The "harvest" spoken of in Rev14:14-20 is the same as spoken of in Joel 3:13 , the sickle is being used on the wicked not the righteous .

Joel 3:13 is only referring to the harvest of the grapes! There are 2 (two) harvests in Revelation 14:14-20

 

[Paul River]

Here we see plainly that the Ressurrection and Rapture take place at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

The other thing that happens at His coming is the destruction of the antichrist.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Please meditate on these things and the Lord will give you understanding.

JLB

We see Messiah return to Mt Zion in Revelation 14:1 with His Holy Ones - Job 5:1, Ps. 89:5 & 7, Dan. 4:13 & 8:13, Matt. 24:31, & 25:31 and Jude 14”

And we see the destruction of the antichrist in Revelation 13

All of this before the rapture of Revelation 14:14-16

 

[Paul River]

In verse Rev14:19 it says "great winepress of the wrath of God "
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And we see the results of the winepress in the next verse "blood came out of the winepress" , and you say "wheat and wine offering" ? ! ?
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The wine is in reference to the second harvest in Rev 17-20. The first harvest in Rev 14:14-16 is the wheat harvest Messiah is speaking of in Matthew 13:24-30

 

[Paul River]

In chapter Rev14 ? Which verse is His coming ?

Revelation 14:1 - "Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand"

 

[Paul River]

This is a coming of the Lord at the very end and the beast and his armies, visible and invisible, take their stand against Jesus and the armies of heaven that follow Him. We know who wins that great battle and that judgment is pronounced in favor of the saints who the world in those days is deceived by the beast in condemning the saints for they refuse to bow down and worship the beast. They will be shocked and surprised. But the saints will be filled with great everlasting joy.
Revelation 16:14-15
Post trib.
New International Version
14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

But Messiah has come already here in Revelation 14 just as it prophecied since the time of Enoc (Jude 1:14), landing right on Mt Zion, just as the angels foretold the disciples in Acts 1:11 together with His Holy Ones (the 144,000). Revelation 19 is not the second coming, it is the fulfillment of Isiah 63:1-6

 

[reddogs]

Truly I see no rapture in these verses . What is see is reaping with a sharp sickle !

It is Jesus that does part of the reaping Rev14:16 , the sickle is being used as an instrument of judgement upon the ones who worship the beast . We see the results in this verse .

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Just total confusion and twisting of the truth, but what can you do...

 

[hawkman]

Revelation 14:1 - "Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand"

So Just 144,000 are going back with Jesus ? Is That what you are saying ?