Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?

[electedbyhim]

Ok, now since you asked me a direct question earlier, I'm going to have to respond to all this whereas normally I wouldn't.

The last interaction we had was post #9.

What makes you certain that the "spirit" working in you isn't continually driving people away from Christ?

Scripture gives certainty.

I've noticed you do this fairly regularly on this forum. In the name of "holding them accountable," you condemn people and judge them by telling them they obviously have no relationship with God, which instead of drawing them closer to Him causes them to leave the forum, and by extension, leave off asking about how to live for Christ. You call this "preaching the gospel" but in reality you are damning souls into Hell through your behavior.

Who am I holding accountable and condemning? Would you not condemn a false gospel?

Who have I said does not have a relationship to God?

My posts causes members to leave the forum? I will assume as a moderator they tell you this.

I'm condemning souls to hell? Wow.

Again, I'm not particular concerned with this debate, but since you engaged me directly it kinda leaves me no choice but to address your posts.

Again, the last interaction we had is post #9.

Obviously you are concerned and I have struck a nerve.

It is interesting that you picked this thread to reveal your mind and not the other threads.

I will muse on your thoughts of me and bring it before the Lord.

 

[hawkman]

Preach the gospel, focus on sanctification, exegetical preaching and holding one another accountable to God's written word.

Holiness , sanctification was one the very reasons my denomination was started ! But the other church members in other local churches were unhappy with the new holiness church group .
So unhappy that they dynamited the holiness church and when that didn't work they took the church apart piled it up and burned it and yet today the denomination is here with us .

Show me a Pentecostal/charismatic church where everything is done decently and in order.

Who is this holiness church I speak of ? A Pentecostal denomination , Church of God .

 

[electedbyhim]

Holiness , sanctification was one the very reasons my denomination was started ! But the other church members in other local churches were unhappy with the new holiness church group .
So unhappy that they dynamited the holiness church and when that didn't work they took the church apart piled it up and burned it and yet today the denomination is here with us .

Who is this holiness church I speak of ? A Pentecostal denomination , Church of God .

Yes I have had dealings with them, they teach sinless perfection.

My experiences with such doctrines (Pentacostal/charasmatic) have left a bad taste in my mouth and eats at me because it leaves the people dry and empty. I have heard of people getting that emotional high, thinking it was Holy Spirit and cannot get it back. They keep trying and trying and do not get it back. In turn, they believe God has left them. The poor people are lost and emotionally damaged.

Apologies, I went off on a tangent.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The last interaction we had was post #9.

Yes, but you drew me a lot more into this discussion, Lol.

Who am I holding accountable and condemning? Would you not condemn a false gospel?

Who have I said does not have a relationship to God?

My posts causes members to leave the forum? I will assume as a moderator they tell you this.

I'm condemning souls to hell? Wow.

I'm not going to post thread links, but I'm talking about things you've posted recently. And yes, I know those are strong words, but when you drive people away from God through judgmentalism in the name of "preaching the gospel," you can end up with blood on your hands for it in eternity, yes? And it goes to the point brought up by this thread. What sort of spirit drives others away from God rather than to Him?

My point is this: If you preach a "gospel" that has no gifts in it, no signs and wonders, no concern with the end-times, and is heavily condemning of anyone who says they are struggling with sin but trying to draw closer to God, how does that resemble true Spirit-filled NT Christianity?

 

[electedbyhim]

I'm not going to post thread links, but I'm talking about things you've posted recently. And yes, I know those are strong words, but when you drive people away from God through judgmentalism in the name of "preaching the gospel," you can end up with blood on your hands for it in eternity. And it goes to the point brought up by this thread. What sort of spirit drives others away from God rather than to Him?

I understand you mean well.

I certainly do not believe that I will end up "with blood on my hands" and do not believe it is Biblical. What you are saying is that I am responsible for people not accepting the gospel and they will go to hell because of how I convey Biblical doctrines.

These people are responsible themselves for not accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

What sort of spirit drives others away from God rather than to Him?

Think about all those that would no accept the Lords word in person and damned themselves to hell. They hated Him so much formthe truth He spoke that they tortured and crucified Him.

Look what the apostles went through, read how they were abused and hated.

My point is this: If you preach a "gospel" that has no gifts in it, no signs and wonders, no concern with the end-times, and is heavily condemning of anyone who says they are struggling with sin but trying to draw closer to God, how does that resemble true Spirit-filled NT Christianity?

The saving gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the sign gifts or end times. Those are other doctrines of the Bible that are not essential to salvation.

I will clarify that the focus should be on Preaching the Gospel, preaching exegetically the word of God and sanctification. I am not saying Eschatology is not important, gifts are not important, However to many obsess with end times and sign gifts more than any other doctrine. That was my point that I was not clear on.

and is heavily condemning of anyone who says they are struggling with sin but trying to draw closer to God, how does that resemble true Spirit-filled NT Christianity?

I understand who you are talking about. This person said they were living in sin.

The advice was given the they should "Examine themselves" to see if they are really saved. That person did not like what I said. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying that.

Surely noone has an issue with Paul saying that to the Corinthians. Examining oneself is throughout the Bible. David said Lord, search me and know me.

Please tell me how that does not resemble Spirit filled Christianity.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Think about all those that would no accept the Lords word in person and damned themselves to hell. They hated Him so much formthe truth He spoke that they tortured and crucified Him.

Look what the apostles went through, read how they were abused and hated.

No. I think you are convoluting driving seekers away by being judgmental with the apostles preaching the word and enduring persecution for it. Those are two different things.

I will clarify that the focus should be on Preaching the Gospel, preaching exegetically the word of God and sanctification. I am not saying Eschatology is not important, gifts are not important, However to many obsess with end times and sign gifts more than any other doctrine. That was my point that I was not clear on.

Well that's better, but I was responding to what you actually posted, and sometimes our words can be more telling than what we realize. So how do you know that Charismatics like myself are not based in the word, and stress the importance of scripture over gifts, signs and wonders? You have interacted with four Charismatics on this thread now, and your posts suggest you are making those assumptions about us, and probably many more like us.

I understand who you are talking about. This person said they were living in sin.

The advice was given the they should "Examine themselves" to see if they are really saved. That person did not like what I said. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying that.

The effect of Paul's ministry was to draw those who were seeking God closer to Him. When someone's interactions with seekers tend to have the opposite effect, that suggests there may indeed be something wrong with it. Keep in mind, I'm not singling you out but rather your approach. I've seen a number of people use it, and the results are generally the same. They're not turned off by the gospel so much as by the spirit of the people who are presenting it to them.

 

[electedbyhim]

No. I think you are convoluting driving seekers away by being judgmental with the apostles preaching the word and enduring persecution for it. Those are two different things.


Well that's better, but I was responding to what you actually posted, and sometimes our words can be more telling than what we realize. So how do you know that Charismatics like myself are not based in the word, and stress the importance of scripture over gifts, signs and wonders? You have interacted with four Charismatics on this thread now, and your posts suggest you are making those assumptions about us, and probably many more like us.


The effect of Paul's ministry was to draw those who were seeking God closer to Him. When someone's interactions with seekers tend to have the opposite effect, that suggests there may indeed be something wrong with it. Keep in mind, I'm not singling you out but rather your approach. I've seen a number of people use it, and the results are generally the same. They're not turned off by the gospel so much as by the spirit of the people who are presenting it to them.

No. I think you are convoluting driving seekers away by being judgmental with the apostles preaching the word and enduring persecution for it. Those are two different things.

If you are being specific to this thread, why are they seeking sign gifts and not forgiveness of sin? How am I coming off as judgemental? My intentions in this specific thread come from my years of experience with the Pentecostal/charismatics.

Well that's better, but I was responding to what you actually posted, and sometimes our words can be more telling than what we realize.

Agreed, sometimes I will type faster than I can think.

So how do you know that Charismatics like myself are not based in the word, and stress the importance of scripture over gifts, signs and wonders?

My replies were not directed at any you. My posts were from expereince and the mainstream Pentecostals/charismatics.

You have interacted with four Charismatics on this thread now, and your posts suggest you are making those assumptions about us, and probably many more like us.

Please see post above.

The effect of Paul's ministry was to draw those who were seeking God closer to Him. When someone's interactions with seekers tend to have the opposite effect, that suggests there may indeed be something wrong with it. Keep in mind, I'm not singling you out but rather your approach. I've seen a number of people use it, and the results are generally the same. They're not turned off by the gospel so much as by the spirit of the people who are presenting it to them.

I am not presenting the Gospel in this thread but replying to the O.P.

Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?​

Keep in mind, I'm not singling you out but rather your approach. I've seen a number of people use it, and the results are generally the same.

But you are, and I take no issue with it.

They're not turned off by the gospel so much as by the spirit of the people who are presenting it to them.

What "spirit" is that?


Only the Lord know the intentions of my heart and the passion that I have. I understand I can be very "straight to the point" and cut out the small talk.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why is this sad?

I lived among these people of many different backgrounds and denominations in a Christian homeless shelter. I have been to many different churches. I have had employers who were of the Penetcostal/charismatics denominations as well.

These peopl are all about me, me, me, me. Look at me, look how spiritual I am. Nonsense.

What I experienced for years was not Biblical in anyway. I have heard all the reasons that I do not speak in tongues, baptised by Holy Spirit, etcetera.

I have studied this theology exstensively because I thought I was wrong. The Lord has shown me His truth through His word. Not some crazy "manifestations" and gibberish that supposedly comes from Holy Spirit.

Please show proof this exists today and is in line withe the Biblical model.

Show me someone speaking to unbelieving Jews in his own native tongue.

Show me real physical healing and real prophets raising the dead.

Show me a Pentecostal/charismatic church where everything is done decently and in order.

It is truly sad that people are fooled into all this chicanery.

There are fakes and there are those who have truly received the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of God's ministry. All things must come by the Holy Spirit working through those who have been given all these gifts in 1Corinthians 12. I remember the first time I walked into a church where they were speaking tongues and lifting their hands almost acting like wild animals to the carnal mind, but the more I grew in the word of God I learnt about all that I thought was just crazy. I've been in many various churches over my many years and this is why we are to discern what spirits are working through others. Just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever so is God's Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

It is sad that you have no understanding in this area and missing out on such a beautiful opportunity of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Joel prophesied to come in the latter days and came to be in Acts chapter 2 that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[electedbyhim]

There are fakes and there are those who have truly received the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of God's ministry. All things must come by the Holy Spirit working through those who have been given all these gifts in 1Corinthians 12. I remember the first time I walked into a church where they were speaking tongues and lifting their hands almost acting like wild animals to the carnal mind, but the more I grew in the word of God I learnt about all that I thought was just crazy. I've been in many various churches over my many years and this is why we are to discern what spirits are working through others. Just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever so is God's Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

It is sad that you have no understanding in this area and missing out on such a beautiful opportunity of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Joel prophesied to come in the latter days and came to be in Acts chapter 2 that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

It is sad that you have no understanding in this area and missing out on such a beautiful opportunity of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Joel prophesied to come in the latter days and came to be in Acts chapter 2 that was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

It truly is not sad.

I have much understanding in this area.

Also, the book of Acts is a historical book, on the "Acts of the Apostles".

Again, we do not need sign gifts, we are complete in Christ from the day of regeneration. Nothing more is needed to add to us but sanctification on a daily basis by walking by or in the Spirit.

There is no "batism of the spirit", there is no tongues, raising the dead, language of angels, physical healings as Christ and the Apostles did. There are no true "prophets" today.

If you want to convince me, show me proof. This has nothing to do with faith.

This movement also calls woman to be Pastors and leaders in the church, this goes against Scripture as well.

 

[Hidden In Him]

My replies were not directed at any you. My posts were from expereince and the mainstream Pentecostals/charismatics.

I'm not quite sure what a mainstream Charismatic is, but my point was simply that it's not my experience with the Pentecostals I know and have had fellowship with. I do know there are individuals who are superficial, and there are some churches where the leadership is sub-par as well, but then I think that's the case with any movement or denomination.

But I think your blanket characterizations that it is "all of Satan" should naturally be read as applying to us, correct? As do your remarks that "These people are all about me, me, me, me. Look at me, look how spiritual I am." As I stated in one of my initial responses, when it comes to the people I've had fellowship with in the past, they are actually quite the opposite.

 

[electedbyhim]

I'm not quite sure what a mainstream Charismatic is, but my point was simply that it's not my experience with the Pentecostals I know and have had fellowship with. I do know there are individuals who are superficial, and there are some churches where the leadership is sub-par as well, but then I think that's the case with any movement or denomination.

Agreed.

But I think your blanket characterizations that it is "all of Satan" should naturally be read as applying to us, correct? As do your remarks that "These people are all about me, me, me, me. Look at me, look how spiritual I am." As I stated in one of my initial responses, when it comes to the people I've had fellowship with in the past, they are actually quite the opposite.

Not so. I have no clue how any of you are in a worship setting. My expereince comes from being in a worship setting.

The problem with the sign gifts is that no one can prove (on a forum) if they are reallr for today or not. In a worship setting it is quite the opposite when one is present in the congregation. Of course we could always trun on TBN to see this insanity. many churches I have been to try to mimick what you see on TBN and some do not.

I would definately not say that what these people do is all of satan, it is true that he and his demons are wel involved in this. The fact is, I do not like to give the evil one any credit whatsoever.

My personal belief is that alot of this comes down to a selfish "look at me" attitude. Kind of like what Paul said...

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The problem with the sign gifts is that no one can prove (on a forum) if they are reallr for today or not.

Well, the thing with this is that if prophecies prove to be accurate, Cessationists tend to just fall back on the argument that demons can prophesy as well, so I don't think there actually IS any way to prove things to a Cessationist on the forums, aside from like direct word of knowledge into their lives that only God would know. Even then, they might become convinced that was of the Devil as well, so the whole thing just kinda becomes a wash unfortunately.

I would definately not say that what these people do is all of satan, it is true that he and his demons are wel involved in this.

Well that sounds more balanced. I was going to mention that the Lord oftentimes resorts to giving people like the Muslims dreams and visions to confirm to them He is indeed the Son of God and not just a prophet, so to throw out the ministry of dreams and visions altogether as being of the enemy would seem to be incongruent with that. I don't think the enemy would be up for leading people to Christ, so something else must be in operation.

My personal belief is that alot of this comes down to a selfish "look at me" attitude. Kind of like what Paul said...

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

I'm not sure I'm following you. This verse advocated for everyone being able to participate in a service by whatever means the Spirit of God led them to be used. How were you applying it to the problem of the "look at me" attitude?

 

[electedbyhim]

Well, the thing with this is that if prophecies prove to be accurate, Cessationists tend to just fall back on the argument that demons can prophesy as well, so I don't think there actually IS any way to prove things to a Cessationist on the forums, aside from like direct word of knowledge into their lives that only God would know. Even then, they might become convinced that was of the Devil as well, so the whole thing just kinda becomes a wash unfortunately.

Why does anyone need a prophecy? Is not the written word of God enough? This prophecy would be adding to the word of God.

Well that sounds more balanced. I was going to mention that the Lord oftentimes resorts to giving people like the Muslims dreams and visions to confirm to them He is indeed the Son of God and not just a prophet, so to throw out the ministry of dreams and visions altogether as being of the enemy would seem to be incongruent with that. I don't think the enemy would be up for leading people to Christ, so something else must be in operation.

The preached Gospel and written word of God is sufficient not dreams and visions. Why would God need to come outside His written word? Of course this was needed in the days of the Apostles because they did not have the completed canon.

I'm not sure I'm following you. This verse advocated for everyone being able to participate in a service by whatever means the Spirit of God led them to be used. How were you applying it to the problem of the "look at me" attitude?

It was about glorifying ones self, not God

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

The primary emphasis of verses 26–40 is that the biblical procedure for the use of languages is to be systematic and orderly, according to divine pattern—contrary to the confused way in which the Corinthian believers seemed to do everything. Whether they had a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation, they all wanted to participate at the same time. They were not interested in serving, or learning, or edifying, but only in self-expression and self-glory. Everyone vied for attention and preeminence.

Once you study the background of what was going on in the Corinthian church, the picture becomes clear.

The Corinthians brought in pagan worship and practices, such as eratic gibberish (tongues). I am not saying that te real gift of tongues back then was of pagan nature.

Apoologies, I went off on a tangent.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why does anyone need a prophecy? Is not the written word of God enough? This prophecy would be adding to the word of God.

No, that's just a common argument that tends to get used in discussions like this a lot, but it's kinda nonsensical IMO. The NT churches were prophesying left and right and only a small fraction of what was prophesied was actually being recorded for posterity. Nowhere did any of the New Testament writers say, "Ok, now make sure every prophecy is written down for posterity because if not, it will have to be rejected because it is 'adding to the word of God.'" They just didn't think like that, and the end-time church won't think like that either.

The preached Gospel and written word of God is sufficient not dreams and visions. Why would God need to come outside His written word? Of course this was needed in the days of the Apostles because they did not have the completed canon.

We're going through the same arguments that always come up, and I don't really want to do that. It's kinda tedious IMO, no offense personally. My response here is to have people define exactly when the cannon was closed, and exactly what books were included when it was closed and by whom, and of course I never get any answers, but like I said, I don't really wanna run through the whole gamut of the Cessationist/ Continuist debate. It's been done a million times.

It was about glorifying ones self, not God

There's nothing in that context that talks about glorifying oneself, Elected. The entire passage is simply talking about operating in the gifts.

The Corinthians brought in pagan worship and practices, such as eratic gibberish (tongues).

Ok, this I would disagree with very strongly, as his rebuke of their practices would have been MUCH stronger than that if this were the case. That is reading into the context things that are not there IMO, but to discuss it would be to venture too far afield from the topic the OP was bringing up.

... If we haven't branched too far afield already, LoL.

But in short, I think true Spirit-filled Christianity involves truly Spirit-filled practices. Anyone can fake being "Spirit-filled" if all Christianity involves is quoting from Bible verses, or teaching and preaching. These things can be done by people who are not even saved, let alone Spirit-filled. But genuine supernatural gifts - the real ones - cannot be faked, because carnal man cannot heal the sick through the laying on of hands, or cast out demons, or prophecy accurately. Sometimes demonic sources can be involved, but the argument that Satan moves in supernatural gifts and yet God does not is incredibly foolish to me, so in the end I think dismissing the gifts of the Spirit as described in the New Testament is an excuse most of the time, and anyone who eliminates them from the Christianity they preach is presenting a perverted version of the original faith.

 

[hawkman]

Yes I have had dealings with them, they teach sinless perfection.

They teach Holiness , but sinless perfection , never seen even a suggestion for such in over four decades .

My experiences with such doctrines (Pentacostal/charasmatic) have left a bad taste in my mouth and eats at me because it leaves the people dry and empty.

Show me where Pentecostal is a "doctrine" .

 

[electedbyhim]

No, that's just a common argument that tends to get used in discussions like this a lot, but it's kinda nonsensical IMO. The NT churches were prophesying left and right and only a small fraction of what was prophesied was actually being recorded for posterity. Nowhere did any of the New Testament writers say, "Ok, now make sure every prophecy is written down in the word of God for posterity because if not, it will have to be rejected because it is 'adding to the word of God.'" They just didn't think like that, and the end-time church won't think like that either.


We're going through the same arguments that always come up, and I don't really want to do that. It's kinda tedious IMO, no offense personally. My response here is to have people define exactly when the cannon was closed, and exactly what books were included when it was closed and by whom, and of course I never get any answers, but like I said, I don't really wanna run through the whole gamut of the Cessationist/ Continuist debate. It's been done a million times.


There's nothing in that context that talks about glorifying oneself, Elected. The entire passage is simply talking about operating in the gifts.


Ok, this I would disagree with very strongly, as his rebuke of their practices would have been MUCH stronger than that if this were the case. That is reading into the context things that are not there IMO, but to discuss it would be to venture too far afield from the topic the OP was bringing up.

... If we haven't branched too far afield already, LoL.

But in short, I think true Spirit-filled Christianity involves truly Spirit-filled practices. Anyone can fake being "Spirit-filled" if all Christianity involves is quoting from Bible verses, or teaching and preaching. These things can be done by people who are not even saved, let alone Spirit-filled. But genuine supernatural gifts - the real ones - cannot be faked, because carnal man cannot heal the sick through the laying on of hands, or cast out demons, or prophecy accurately. Sometimes demonic sources can be involved, but the argument that Satan moves in supernatural gifts and yet God does not is incredibly foolish to me, so in the end I think dismissing the gifts of the Spirit as described in the New Testament is an excuse most of the time, and any Christianity that eliminates them from the Christianity they preach is presenting a perverted version of the original faith.

Fair enough.

I have no problem with your opinions.

Essentially what you are saying is that the churches that do not teach the sign gifts are perverting the faith.

Perhaps if there was real proof that the sign gifts that are in use today are real and not fake, this would not be an issue.

There simply is no proof.

Again, doing a background survey on 1 Corinthians will bring much light to the situtaion.

Thank you for you interaaction and I hope my replies did not come off to blunt in straight forward.

We all have one common goal and that is to spread the word of Jesus Christ.

 

[electedbyhim]

They teach Holiness , but sinless perfection , never seen even a suggestion for such in over four decades .

Show me where Pentecostal is a "doctrine" .

My point was the teachings of these denominations.

Grammar/english were not my strong points in the 6 years of high school, if you cannot tell.

 

[for_his_glory]

It truly is not sad.

I have much understanding in this area.

Also, the book of Acts is a historical book, on the "Acts of the Apostles".

Again, we do not need sign gifts, we are complete in Christ from the day of regeneration. Nothing more is needed to add to us but sanctification on a daily basis by walking by or in the Spirit.

There is no "batism of the spirit", there is no tongues, raising the dead, language of angels, physical healings as Christ and the Apostles did. There are no true "prophets" today.

If you want to convince me, show me proof. This has nothing to do with faith.

This movement also calls woman to be Pastors and leaders in the church, this goes against Scripture as well.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

One Body with Many Members
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Does cessationism just tear that chapter out of the Bible plus ignore what Joel said in Joel 2:28-32 and all the other chapters that speak about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit?

 

[for_his_glory]

My personal belief is that alot of this comes down to a selfish "look at me" attitude. Kind of like what Paul said...

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

One verse does not prove your point without the full context. 1Corinthians 14:2These are they we need6-40 Paul is teaching about orderly worship. You need to read the full teaching instead of cherry picking trying to make scripture line up with what you believe. That is a dangerous path to follow. I'm 69 and have been in many churches in my life time where many do act on their own accord separate from the Holy Spirit speaking through them or those who let their emotions carry them away, but until you are in an orderly worship service witnessing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, it is something that one refuses to understand. Like Saul's daughter Michal you too are despising these people as you have no understanding of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit you claim is no longer.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.


Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psa 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[electedbyhim]

One verse does not prove your point without the full context. 1Corinthians 14:2These are they we need6-40 Paul is teaching about orderly worship. You need to read the full teaching instead of cherry picking trying to make scripture line up with what you believe. That is a dangerous path to follow. I'm 69 and have been in many churches in my life time where many do act on their own accord separate from the Holy Spirit speaking through them or those who let their emotions carry them away, but until you are in an orderly worship service witnessing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, it is something that one refuses to understand. Like Saul's daughter Michal you too are despising these people as you have no understanding of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit you claim is no longer.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.


Psa 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psa 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psa 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

No one cherry picked anything.

I have studied these verse, I understand the background of the Corinthians.

Why does anyone need the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit inswells them already?

Tongues were a sign for unbelieving Jews.

Do you have unbelieving Jews in your church?