I have explained all of this with scripture and I can not make you see, but I pray the Holy Spirit bring you understanding. You have a good evening.
Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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How are famous preachers sometimes affected by sin?
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Is God outside his written word right now ?
Do you close your Bible and God stays in there never to come out ?
The mystery religions originated the idea of baptismal regeneration, being born again merely through the rite of water baptism, and the practice of mutilation and flagellation to atone for sins or gain spiritual favor. They also began the custom of pilgrimages, which many religions follow today, and the paying of penance for forgiveness of sins for oneself and for others.
Several pagan practices were especially influential in the church at Corinth. Perhaps the most important, and certainly the most obvious, was that of ecstasy, considered to be the highest expression of religious experience. Because it seemed supernatural and because it was dramatic and often bizarre, the practice strongly appealed to the natural man. And because the Holy Spirit had performed many miraculous works in that apostolic age, some Corinthian Christians confused those true wonders with the false wonders counterfeited in the ecstasies of paganism.
Ecstasy (Greek, ekstasia, a term not used in Scripture) was held to be a supernatural, sensuous communion with a deity. Through frenzied hypnotic chants and ceremonies worshipers experienced semiconscious euphoric feelings of oneness with the god or goddess. Often the ceremony would be preceded by vigils and fastings, and would even include drunkenness (see Eph. 5:18). Contemplation of sacred objects, whirling dances, fragrant incense, chants, and other such physical and psychological stimuli customarily were used to induce the ecstasy, which would be in the form of an out-of-body trance or an unrestrained sexual orgy. The trance is reflected in some forms of Hindu yoga, in which a person becomes insensitive to pain, and in the Buddhist goal of escaping into Nirvana, the divine nothingness. Sexual ecstasies were common in many ancient religions and were so much associated with Corinth that the term Corinthianize meant to indulge in extreme sexual immorality. A temple to Bacchus still stands in the ruins of Baalbek (in modern Lebanon) as a witness to the debauchery of the mystery religions.
A similar form of mystical experience was called enthusiasm (Greek, enthusiasmos), which often accompanied but was distinct from ecstasy. Enthusiasm involved mantic formulas, divination, and revelatory dreams and visions, all of which are found in many pagan religions and philosophies today.
New Testament Corinth was filled with priests, priestesses, religious prostitutes, soothsayers, and diviners of the mystery religions who claimed to represent a god or gods and to have supernatural powers that proved their claims. Unbelievably, some of their dramatic and bizarre practices were mimicked in the church.
The Corinthian believers knew of the prophet Joel’s prediction:
And it will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
And even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (2:28–29)
They also knew that Jesus had said that the coming of the Holy Spirit would be accompanied by amazing signs and events (Mark 16:17–18). They had heard, perhaps firsthand from Peter, of the miraculous events of Pentecost, with the tongues of fire and speaking with other languages (Acts 2:3–4). Perhaps they were so determined to experience those wonders that they tried to manufacture them.
First Corinthians was one of the earliest written epistles of the New Testament. Yet even in a short period of time Satan had begun to confuse believers about many doctrines, practices, and signs. The pure water of God’s truth was being muddied, and nowhere more than in Corinth. Satan began to counterfeit the gospel and its wonders in earnest, and the gullible, worldly, self-centered, thrill-seeking Corinthians with their pagan backgrounds were prime targets for his assaults.
People do not counterfeit what is not valuable. Satan counterfeits the Spirit’s gifts because he knows they are so valuable in God’s plan. If Satan can get God’s people to become confused about or abusive of those gifts, he can undermine and corrupt the worship and work of the church. Counterfeit gifts, whether through false manifestations or through misguided and selfish use, poison God’s spiritual organism and make it weak and ineffective.
One of the chief evidences of the spiritual immaturity of the Corinthian Christians was lack of discernment. If an occult practice seemed to have supernatural effect, they assumed it was of God. If a priest or soothsayer performed a miracle, they assumed it was by God’s power. Like many Christians today, they believed that if something “works” it must be right and good. Some of the believers, however, realized that the confusion, division, and immoral practices that characterized many of the church members could not be of God. They asked Paul to tell them how to determine what was of the Holy Spirit and what was of some other spirit (cf. 1 John 4:1).[1]
[1] John F. MacArthur Jr., 1 Corinthians, MacArthur New Testament Commentary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1984), 280–281.
Several pagan practices were especially influential in the church at Corinth. Perhaps the most important, and certainly the most obvious, was that of ecstasy, considered to be the highest expression of religious experience. Because it seemed supernatural and because it was dramatic and often bizarre, the practice strongly appealed to the natural man. And because the Holy Spirit had performed many miraculous works in that apostolic age, some Corinthian Christians confused those true wonders with the false wonders counterfeited in the ecstasies of paganism.
Ecstasy (Greek, ekstasia, a term not used in Scripture) was held to be a supernatural, sensuous communion with a deity. Through frenzied hypnotic chants and ceremonies worshipers experienced semiconscious euphoric feelings of oneness with the god or goddess. Often the ceremony would be preceded by vigils and fastings, and would even include drunkenness (see Eph. 5:18). Contemplation of sacred objects, whirling dances, fragrant incense, chants, and other such physical and psychological stimuli customarily were used to induce the ecstasy, which would be in the form of an out-of-body trance or an unrestrained sexual orgy. The trance is reflected in some forms of Hindu yoga, in which a person becomes insensitive to pain, and in the Buddhist goal of escaping into Nirvana, the divine nothingness. Sexual ecstasies were common in many ancient religions and were so much associated with Corinth that the term Corinthianize meant to indulge in extreme sexual immorality. A temple to Bacchus still stands in the ruins of Baalbek (in modern Lebanon) as a witness to the debauchery of the mystery religions.
A similar form of mystical experience was called enthusiasm (Greek, enthusiasmos), which often accompanied but was distinct from ecstasy. Enthusiasm involved mantic formulas, divination, and revelatory dreams and visions, all of which are found in many pagan religions and philosophies today.
The Situation in Corinth
New Testament Corinth was filled with priests, priestesses, religious prostitutes, soothsayers, and diviners of the mystery religions who claimed to represent a god or gods and to have supernatural powers that proved their claims. Unbelievably, some of their dramatic and bizarre practices were mimicked in the church.
The Corinthian believers knew of the prophet Joel’s prediction:
And it will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
And even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days. (2:28–29)
They also knew that Jesus had said that the coming of the Holy Spirit would be accompanied by amazing signs and events (Mark 16:17–18). They had heard, perhaps firsthand from Peter, of the miraculous events of Pentecost, with the tongues of fire and speaking with other languages (Acts 2:3–4). Perhaps they were so determined to experience those wonders that they tried to manufacture them.
First Corinthians was one of the earliest written epistles of the New Testament. Yet even in a short period of time Satan had begun to confuse believers about many doctrines, practices, and signs. The pure water of God’s truth was being muddied, and nowhere more than in Corinth. Satan began to counterfeit the gospel and its wonders in earnest, and the gullible, worldly, self-centered, thrill-seeking Corinthians with their pagan backgrounds were prime targets for his assaults.
People do not counterfeit what is not valuable. Satan counterfeits the Spirit’s gifts because he knows they are so valuable in God’s plan. If Satan can get God’s people to become confused about or abusive of those gifts, he can undermine and corrupt the worship and work of the church. Counterfeit gifts, whether through false manifestations or through misguided and selfish use, poison God’s spiritual organism and make it weak and ineffective.
One of the chief evidences of the spiritual immaturity of the Corinthian Christians was lack of discernment. If an occult practice seemed to have supernatural effect, they assumed it was of God. If a priest or soothsayer performed a miracle, they assumed it was by God’s power. Like many Christians today, they believed that if something “works” it must be right and good. Some of the believers, however, realized that the confusion, division, and immoral practices that characterized many of the church members could not be of God. They asked Paul to tell them how to determine what was of the Holy Spirit and what was of some other spirit (cf. 1 John 4:1).[1]
[1] John F. MacArthur Jr., 1 Corinthians, MacArthur New Testament Commentary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1984), 280–281.
Jr. is going to help you out with the answer . God's plan is still in action .
Exactly ! Even if speaking in tongues is thought to be one of the lesser gifts Satan places a high value on the Gift otherwise he would not counterfeit it with false tongues .
And we know that God' plan continues today and everyday ! This is why the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in action among God's saints .
You said why yourself , God's plan still goes on today !
Why would Satan counterfeit something that is no longer in circulation ?
Didn't you offer to post videos of counterfeit tongues in operation ?
Of what value would a counterfeit have if the real thing was no longer in use ?
Answer these questions , please .
The answer was in the same paragraph.
If Satan can get God’s people to become confused about or abusive of those gifts, he can undermine and corrupt the worship and work of the church. Counterfeit gifts, whether through false manifestations or through misguided and selfish use, poison God’s spiritual organism and make it weak and ineffective.
Now answer my questions.
Why do we need the sign gifts today?
For what purpose and to who?
I will , yet again .
Jr. told you why in what you posted from him in the quote below " GOD's PLAN" .
God's plan for mankind is still going forward today ! ! ! That plan includes the Holy Spirit in action .
Or do you believe Satan has won and God's plan is no longer going forward ?
Jr.? Thats a dig at the Pastor who exposes the nonsesnse that is called sign gifts today.
I am looking for your answer.
Why do we need the sign gifts today. What is the purpose that they do that the Bible cannot?
Jr. could be seen a name of endearment , my wife has an uncle Jr. . I was after all agreeing with what he said in some parts .
Ok , I think I covered that here . https://christianforums.net/threads/the-false-vs-true-gift-of-tongues.103106/page-5#post-1860876
electedbyhim have you ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit according to Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; John 14:26. This is also known as the Baptism of Christ where He fills us with the Holy Spirit and fire, which fire means empowerment from the Holy Spirit to continue in the works of the Lord as we can only receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit by God alone. This is separate from John's baptism in water which was only a symbol of repentance as being made clean again, but was only temporal.
You are great at following a man's teachings like that of John MacArthur Jr. who is also a Cessationalist, but neglect the very word of God that has been set before you. I praise God He is not about a man's religion, which there are over 5000 in this world. It's The Holy Spirit that works through those who are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
You claim these gifts are no longer operational since all the Apostles are dead, but this comes against scripture and would make the indwelling of the Holy Spirit no longer being needed. It's better to allow the Holy Spirit teach us all truths instead of those who are clearly not called and anointed to teach. There are way to many bandwagon teachings that only line the pockets of those who deceive us.
You are great at following a man's teachings like that of John MacArthur Jr. who is also a Cessationalist, but neglect the very word of God that has been set before you. I praise God He is not about a man's religion, which there are over 5000 in this world. It's The Holy Spirit that works through those who are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
You claim these gifts are no longer operational since all the Apostles are dead, but this comes against scripture and would make the indwelling of the Holy Spirit no longer being needed. It's better to allow the Holy Spirit teach us all truths instead of those who are clearly not called and anointed to teach. There are way to many bandwagon teachings that only line the pockets of those who deceive us.
When a believer is regenerated they are indwelt by Holy Spirit.
Baptized with fire is judgement on the nonrepentant.
There is no second Baptism.
That is a whole different doctrine which is not Biblical.
It is not only Pastor Macarthur that I read, there are many many other commentaries I have. That man has been blessed by God and his ministry has been going strong for Gods glory.
I am a Cessationaist not because of Macarthur, but my own years of experience among these people. There is no proof, anything I witnessed did not pass the Biblical test.
How could God's true church function without the gifts of the Holy Spirit found in 1Corinthians 12?
The signs and wonders of these gifts are for lifting up and edifying those who are Christ own being the body of Christ as not all those who are sitting in the pews have become a Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Theses gifts of healing and speaking in tongues is also a sign to those who have yet not received Christ that they can see the manifestation of the works of the Holy Spirit working through others.
Many go to Church every week and sit in the pews clutching their Bible, but never open it as they would rather man teach them. He's a good Pastor, he went to this or that College, but yet many of these Pastors deny the power of God as they only preach with a carnal logical mind giving their flock what they want to hear as in tickling their ears. I use to be one of those flocks that in ignorance of truth believed everything that came out from the pulpit because I lacked Spiritual understanding only given by the Holy Spirit that works through those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit to feed their flock all truth.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Wow, we give you scripture that says different in what you believe, but yet you ignore them because of what man teaches you apart from the Holy Spirit.
The Gospel is not good enough or the written word of God.
What language were they speaking in?
Look at all the miracles and healings Christ did, and people still did not believe.
I get what you are saying. The Pastors I listen to (are called by God) and read do not itch ears. They preach exegetically verse by verse truth.
I filter everything through Scripture.
There is no need for the sign gifts today other than for people to bring glory to themselves.
You are contradicting yourself. Either you believe the whole of the Bible or you believe none of it. Since you do not believe what has already been written then I have nothing more to say to you.