Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?

[reddogs]

I had someone who ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was already going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Oral Roberts back in the day, and the Word of Faith preachers Kenneth Hagin , Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn, etc.. and the movement behind it. I have to say, test the spirit. Many Word of Faith teachers use phrases such as "little gods" to describe believers. Kenneth Hagin wrote that God had created humans "in the same class of being that he is himself,"and reasoned that if humans are made in God's image, they are "in God's class", and thereby 'gods.

Here is more on what I came across...
'Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: it claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods.'... https://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

 

[electedbyhim]

Most of them have nothing to do with the Bible.

The "spirit" that guides them is of satan and his demons.

I was around many of these denominatiosn for years and it is very evil and satanic. Especially those tohat claim to be prophets, speak in tongues, raise the dead and all the other nonsesne they spew.

Never once witnessed anything Biblical.

Health and wealth sells to people with itching ears.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I had someone who ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was already going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Oral Roberts back in the day, and the Word of Faith preachers Kenneth Hagin , Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn, etc.. and the movement behind it. I have to say, test the spirit. Many Word of Faith teachers use phrases such as "little gods" to describe believers. Kenneth Hagin wrote that God had created humans "in the same class of being that he is himself,"and reasoned that if humans are made in God's image, they are "in God's class", and thereby 'gods.

You have to make distinctions, however. There are those who use the expression "Spirit-filled" who are not part of that crowd, and don't identify in the least with corrupted theology like the "little gods" teaching, yet Cessationists have a nasty habit of classifying everyone who identifies as Spirit-filled with such people because it makes it easier to vilify Continuism as a whole. I almost never come across a Cessationist who has a balanced view on this issue. They tunnel vision, and so they only see what they want to see.

 

[electedbyhim]

You have to make distinctions, however. There are those who use the expression "Spirit-filled" who are not part of that crowd, and don't identify in the least with corrupted theology like the "little gods" teaching, yet Cessationists have a nasty habit of classifying everyone who identifies as Spirit-filled with such people because it makes it easier to vilify Continuism as a whole. I almost never come across a Cessationist who has a balanced view on this issue. They tunnel vision, and so they only see what they want to see.

I can almost agree with this.

If someone can actually prove that these sign gifts are genuine, and not just claim it. I would be open to believe it.

The question I always have is why do we even need the sign gifts when we have the revelation in God's written word?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I can almost agree with this.

If someone can actually prove that these sign gifts are genuine, and not just claim it. I would be open to believe it.

The question I always have is why do we even need the sign gifts when we have the revelation in God's written word?

Hello, Elected.

The reason is because prophecy in particular will pinpoint very specifically things that are going on in our lives or in the lives of others that the Lord wants to address; current strategies of the enemy, specific threats to our spiritual or even physical welfare, coming problems, coming blessings or opportunities, insight into specific callings, things we specifically need to be working on and how and why, etc.

The word of God is the basis of everything we receive from God, and needs to be the foundation upon which we build; the basis of what we believe and how we think regarding ALL issues, so a strong knowledge of the word is essential. But while the word speaks generally to the patterns of behavior we are to follow; holiness, godliness, kindness, mercy, joy, love, peace, etc., the prophetic gifts are a means by which God addresses issues more specifically, things more specifically relevant to us at the current time, or that will become more relevant in the future.

 

[electedbyhim]

Hello, Elected.

The reason is because prophecy in particular will pinpoint very specifically things that are going on in our lives or in the lives of others that the Lord wants to address; current strategies of the enemy, specific threats to our spiritual or even physical welfare, coming problems, coming blessings or opportunities, insight into specific callings, things we specifically need to be working on and how and why, etc.

The word of God is the basis of everything we receive from God, and needs to be the foundation upon which we build; the basis of what we believe and how we think regarding ALL issues, so a strong knowledge of the word is essential. But while the words speaks generally to the patterns of behavior we are to follow; holiness, godliness, kindness, mercy, joy, love, peace, etc., the prophetic gifts are a mens by which God address issues more specifically, things more specifically relevant to us at the current time, or that will become more relevant in the future.

So why is it that only a "select" few seem to be able to have these sign gifts, why only a few denominations that focus on the sign gifts and that satan is constantly atatcking them?

Why has no one shown legititmate sign gifts?

Satan and his demons can counterfeit all ot the sign gifts. You can witness this by tuning into TBN.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So why is it that only a "select" few seem to be able to have these sign gifts, why only a few denominations that focus on the sign gifts and that satan is constantly atatcking them?

A couple of reasons. There are many that do not believe the gifts are still for today, and as anyone who has operated in them will tell you, it becomes exceedingly difficult to operate in them in such environments. It's the same principle as trying to worship in a room with a lot of spiritually dead people, or teach the word powerfully in a room full of faithless people. It's why the scripture said Jesus could do very few miracles in His hometown because of their unbelief. They were so used to seeing Him as Joseph's son that they could not believe in His power to heal, cast out demons, etc.

There is also the issue of God finding vessels who will be responsible with the gifts, and that's also a big problem in our time as well. There is a trend towards immediately sticking out the hand when God uses them and saying, "Thus saith the Lord, 'Pay the man of God.'" So many are not fit to be used to any great degree, because they would take glory unto themselves. Few are humble enough to simply stay in the background and NOT wish to be noticed, knowing it's Christ within them and not they themselves who amount to anything.

Those would be the primary reasons, IMO.

Why has no one shown legititmate sign gifts?

That's an assumption many make. It's not true.

Satan and his demons can counterfeit all ot the sign gifts. You can witness this by tuning into TBN.

Been a long time since I've turned on TBN, but yes. The enemy counterfeits the gifts quite frequently. There's also the problem of believers themselves counterfeiting the gifts by simply faking them, and again this goes back to the issue of wanting to receive notoriety or attention. They do not receive genuine gifts precisely because of such attitudes, so they have no choice but to fake them if they want to be seen as someone "great." The truly humble don't care about how people see them. They care only about how others see Jesus.

 

[electedbyhim]

A couple of reasons. There are many that do not believe the gifts are still for today, and as anyone who has operated in them will tell you, it becomes exceedingly difficult to operate in them in such environments. It's the same principle as trying to worship in a room with a lot of spiritually dead people, or teach the word powerfully in a room full of faithless people. It's why the scripture said Jesus could do very few miracles in His hometown because of their unbelief. They were so used to seeing Him as Joseph's son that they could not believe in His power to heal, cast out demons, etc.

There is also the issue of God finding vessels who will be responsible with the gifts, and that's also a big problem in our time as well. Like with many in the Faith and Prosperity movement, unfortunately, there is a trend towards immediately sticking out the hand when God uses them and saying, "Thus saith the Lord, 'Pay the man of God.'" So many are not fit to be used to any great degree, because they would take glory unto themselves. But this is true of much of the body of Christ today, not just the Faith crowd. So many are carnally-oriented that they would immediately begin turning the notoriety into a means to achieve greater recognition, greater fame, etc. Few are humble enough to simply stay in the background and NOT wish to be noticed, knowing it's Christ within them and not they themselves who amount to anything.

Those would be the primary reasons, IMO.


That's an assumption many make. It's not true.


Been a long time since I've turned on TBN, but yes. The enemy counterfeits the gifts quite frequently. There's also the problem of believers themselves counterfeiting the gifts by simply faking them, and again this goes back to the issue of wanting to receive notoriety or attention. They do not receive genuine gifts precisely because of such attitudes, so they have no choice but to fake them if they want to be seen as someone "great." The truly humble don't care about how people see them. They care only about how others see Jesus.

Why has no one shown legititmate sign gifts?

That's an assumption many make. It's not true.

For years I was invovled with these people side by side. I have never seen any sincerity or genuine sign gifts.

I can tell you stories, but that will not change anyones mind.

The fact reamins that I believe we only need God's written word to see anything about us, sinful or not. I have had people give me a "word from God", laid hands on me, baptized in the spirit, etcetera, etcetera. Everything we need for holiness and Godliness was given to us at salvation. We have it all in Christ and in His word.

2 Peter 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

Again, I do not believe God uses sign gifts, most of that was for unbelieving Jews according to 1 Corinthians 14. Even the Corinthians were abusing the gifs, that was one of the reasosns Paul wrote to them. Alot of people believe what Paul penned in 1 Corinthinas 14 and other chapters was doctrine, but this was Paul being sarcastic.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thank you for your reply.

You're welcome.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes agreed little to nothing of biblical truth much like “reformed” theology, where people believe they are saved without ever hearing and believing the Gospel.

What has this to do with this thread?

Who said anything about being saved without the gospel?

My friend, what are you going on about.

I am glad youa agree that the "Spirit filled" denomiations have nothing to do with biblical truth.

I am really surprised by you agreeing.

Gentlemen, keep the discussion peaceable please. The topic is to what extent churches are truly Spirit-filled.
- H

 

[for_his_glory]

So why is it that only a "select" few seem to be able to have these sign gifts, why only a few denominations that focus on the sign gifts and that satan is constantly atatcking them?

Why has no one shown legititmate sign gifts?

Satan and his demons can counterfeit all ot the sign gifts. You can witness this by tuning into TBN.

Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Mat 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

God only gives these signs to those who are His own as they can very easily be found in His word. It's a corrupt generation that has to ask for them, but will not recognize them when they are given.

Take Cessationism for an example as they view that miracle gifts of tongues and healing have ceased. These like many follow after a false prophet that stands behind a pulpit known as the spirit of Jezebel and a Nicolaitian spirit that God hates, Rev 2:4-7, 14-15, 20-22. Never look for others to teach you truth, but look for what spirit is speaking through them, 1John 4:1-6.

 

[electedbyhim]

Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
Mat 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

God only gives these signs to those who are His own as they can very easily be found in His word. It's a corrupt generation that has to ask for them, but will not recognize them when they are given.

Take Cessationism for an example as they view that miracle gifts of tongues and healing have ceased. These like many follow after a false prophet that stands behind a pulpit known as the spirit of Jezebel and a Nicolaitian spirit that God hates, Rev 2:4-7, 14-15, 20-22. Never look for others to teach you truth, but look for what spirit is speaking through them, 1John 4:1-6.

Everything gets filtered through the written word of God, through pray and dilligent study.

I am a cessationist, I have been down this path to many times. Test the spirits and you will have your answer.

There is no reason for any sign gifts today. It is all of satan and never goes by Biblical authority.

 

[hawkman]

It is all of satan and never goes by Biblical authority.

electedbyhim you would have to be omnipresent to know this , are you ?

 

[electedbyhim]

electedbyhim you would have to be omnipresent to know this , are you ?

Test the spirits.

Do you actually believe that Holy Spirit makes you roll around with eyes rolled backwards and chanting gibberish.

Shall I post videos?

 

[for_his_glory]

Everything gets filtered through the written word of God, through pray and dilligent study.

I am a cessationist, I have been down this path to many times. Test the spirits and you will have your answer.

There is no reason for any sign gifts today. It is all of satan and never goes by Biblical authority.

It's sad when you can not allow yourself to see the glory of the Lord made manifest in other peoples lives and choose to ignore 1 Corinthians 12.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

 

[electedbyhim]

It's sad when you can not allow yourself to see the glory of the Lord made manifest in other peoples lives and choose to ignore 1 Corinthians 12.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Why is this sad?

I lived among these people of many different backgrounds and denominations in a Christian homeless shelter. I have been to many different churches. I have had employers who were of the Penetcostal/charismatics denominations as well.

These peopl are all about me, me, me, me. Look at me, look how spiritual I am. Nonsense.

What I experienced for years was not Biblical in anyway. I have heard all the reasons that I do not speak in tongues, baptised by Holy Spirit, etcetera.

I have studied this theology exstensively because I thought I was wrong. The Lord has shown me His truth through His word. Not some crazy "manifestations" and gibberish that supposedly comes from Holy Spirit.

Please show proof this exists today and is in line withe the Biblical model.

Show me someone speaking to unbelieving Jews in his own native tongue.

Show me real physical healing and real prophets raising the dead.

Show me a Pentecostal/charismatic church where everything is done decently and in order.

It is truly sad that people are fooled into all this chicanery.

 

[electedbyhim]

I will also add that these people focus more on sign gifts, prophesy, a word from God and dreams. Most of their time is in trying to understand Eschatology. Who cares about the end times. There is a time and place for that. One should not be consumed with the end times. Preach the gospel, focus on sanctification, exegetical preaching and holding one another accountable to God's written word.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Maybe the gifts continue somewhere? I think God still heals based on personal experience…


But my own personal healing was a 10 plus year journey that happened despite me and being filled with false doctrine and such.


Maybe God does will that someone somewhere speak in tongues. I’ve seen it once and it was obviously fake.

 

[electedbyhim]

Maybe the gifts continue somewhere? I think God still heals based on personal experience…


But my own personal healing was a 10 plus year journey that happened despite me and being filled with false doctrine and such.


Maybe God does will that someone somewhere speak in tongues. I’ve seen it once and it was obviously fake.

I understand what you are saying, especially on healing. There is no doubt in my mind that the Lord does heal physicallly and mentally.

God can and does as He wills.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I will also add that these people focus more on sign gifts, prophesy, a word from God and dreams. Most of their time is in trying to understand Eschatology. Who cares about the end times.

The apostles cared about the end-times. The entire early church did. Nowhere in scripture did any of them make the comment, "Who cares about the end-times." Are they not to be the pattern we follow, or has the pattern now become something you created after your own image?

One should not be consumed with the end times. Preach the gospel, focus on sanctification, exegetical preaching and holding one another accountable to God's written word.

Ok, now since you asked me a direct question earlier, I'm going to have to respond to all this whereas normally I wouldn't. What makes you certain that the "spirit" working in you isn't continually driving people away from Christ? I've noticed you do this fairly regularly on this forum. In the name of "holding them accountable," you condemn people and judge them by telling them they obviously have no relationship with God, which instead of drawing them closer to Him causes them to leave the forum, and by extension, leave off asking about how to live for Christ. You call this "preaching the gospel" but in reality you are damning souls into Hell through your behavior.

Again, I'm not particular concerned with this debate, but since you engaged me directly it kinda leaves me no choice but to address your posts.