Already Delivered

[RandyK]

Wesley addresses that when he says that the elements that make us up will just pass through them. They will only be able to use the energy that we have stored up inside of us. That is why we fatten up animals to eat them.

He believed that animals were originally in harmony with humanity and that their suffering was a consequence of human sin. His views on the restoration of creation suggest that all elements, including the physical makeup of beings, will be transformed in the resurrection. The Bible says there will be no more death.

In ecology, the food chain describes how energy moves through an ecosystem as organisms consume one another. Animals that "work their way up" the food chain are typically predators that evolve to hunt more efficiently or adapt to new food sources.

That makes sense. It doesn't answer the question proposed, "Are the elements themselves restored to us in the Resurrection that belonged to our original bodies?"

If you're just saying the energy in these elements are preserved for us somewhere, I don't think so. But the idea of energy transfer in the New World may have some merit to it--I don't know?

I think we are preserved as "spirits"--not energy. What is restored to us is a new set of "dust," in my opinion.

 

[JLB]

I think I see what you mean. It's my understanding that the disciples, esp. the Apostles were mainly involved with things concerning the Church (as you said), no more the Law. An example is that the Lord Jesus taught law, grace and the eternal state simultaneously, because the law didn't pass "away" (Heb 10:9) until He ascended. So "love your neighbor as yourself" is law and is conditional which is "as you love yourself;" and Christ taught differently to the Christian by saying "love one another, as I have loved you," which is unconditional.

Forgive one another sins is what Jesus taught His Church leadership.

 

[Elijah7777]

That makes sense. It doesn't answer the question proposed, "Are the elements themselves restored to us in the Resurrection that belonged to our original bodies?"

"I thought I had made that abundantly clear—YES, YES, our original elements are brought back together again, according to Wesley and his understanding of the Bible.

The story they tell, though a bit humorous, illustrates this idea: A man stole apples from a tree while sitting on his friend's back. When taken to court, the judge, in delivering justice, made him sit on his friend's back again—ensuring he was in the same condition as when he committed the crime.

Similarly, in Revelation, at the resurrection, the dead are raised and reunited with their bodies so that God can judge them in the condition in which they transgressed. Those found unworthy are then cast into the fire."*

The Great White Throne Judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15. In this final judgment, the dead are resurrected and stand before God, who opens the books to judge them according to their deeds. Those whose names are found in the Book of Life are spared, receiving eternal life in God's presence.

Revelation 21:3-4 reveals the incredible reward for the righteous: God will dwell with them, wipe away every tear, and there will be no more death, sorrow, or pain. They are welcomed into the New Heaven and New Earth, where they live in peace and joy forever.

 

[RandyK]

"I thought I had made that abundantly clear—YES, YES, our original elements are brought back together again, according to Wesley and his understanding of the Bible.

The story they tell, though a bit humorous, illustrates this idea: A man stole apples from a tree while sitting on his friend's back. When taken to court, the judge, in delivering justice, made him sit on his friend's back again—ensuring he was in the same condition as when he committed the crime.

Similarly, in Revelation, at the resurrection, the dead are raised and reunited with their bodies so that God can judge them in the condition in which they transgressed. Those found unworthy are then cast into the fire."*

The Great White Throne Judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15. In this final judgment, the dead are resurrected and stand before God, who opens the books to judge them according to their deeds. Those whose names are found in the Book of Life are spared, receiving eternal life in God's presence.

Revelation 21:3-4 reveals the incredible reward for the righteous: God will dwell with them, wipe away every tear, and there will be no more death, sorrow, or pain. They are welcomed into the New Heaven and New Earth, where they live in peace and joy forever.

You still don't answer the question. Wesley is not an authority in this regard, as far as I'm concerned. If the elements dissolve back into the dust, and that dust is shared by more than one person as it is included in plants, then animals, and then humans, how can these elements be divided between more than one person in the resurrection?

Let's say Moses has dust "A" and dies, leaving "A" in the ground. Some of that dust is absorbed into edible plants in the form of nutrients. Then these plants, now containing some of "A" are eaten by cows. Then the cows have some of "A." Then people eat these cows, meaning that the people now have some of "A."

When these people die, all of them having some of "A," how can "A" be restored to Moses, the origin of "A?" All of these people also die and then, in your scenario, would have "A" restored to them as well? Moses certainly would not get his original "A!"

So this isn't science, brother. And you're not acknowledging the point. I can understand if you don't want to address it. People are not just energy in their deposited "dust."

What remains of people are their spirits, which is not "energy" in the dust, but their spiritual beings. The dust that they deposit does not contain energy that is labeled, kept, and returned to the original people who temporarily harbored that energy!

 

[Elijah7777]

There is no set of elements that belong exclusively to a single deceased person! For "dust" to "awaken" we would have to mean something metaphorical, and not literal. For "dust to awaken" God could simply assemble a new set of "dust" to form a new man.

Wesley did not know modern science that we know today.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, the body that is buried is the same one that is raised, but it is glorified and transformed into an imperishable state.

Your body is constantly regenerating itself, but it does so using new elements, not the exact same ones you were originally composed of. Different tissues in your body renew at different rates:

• Skin replaces itself roughly every 27 days.
• Red blood cells are replaced every 120 days.
• Bones take about 10 years to fully renew.
• Liver cells regenerate within months.
• Stomach lining renews every 3-5 days due to exposure to strong acids2.

I have to go 3 to 5 days without eating sometimes to allow my stomach to heal.

This means that over time, the atoms and molecules making up your body are gradually replaced with new ones from food, water, and air. While your body maintains its structure and function, the actual physical material composing it is constantly changing.

 

[Elijah7777]

Wesley is not an authority in this regard

Yes, you do not believe what Wesley said is possible. That would mean 100 years ago people could not know what we know today because of all we have discovered in the last 100 years. Yet do we know more than the early church knew in the beginning of the Church age?

 

[Elijah7777]

you're not acknowledging the point.

Carl Sagan’s famous statement that "we are made of star stuff" refers to the scientific fact that the elements in our bodies—carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and others—were originally forged in the nuclear reactions of ancient stars. When those stars exploded as supernovae, they scattered these elements across the cosmos, eventually forming planets, life, and everything we see today.

From a theological perspective, if randomness does not truly exist, as chaos theory suggests, then every element that makes up our bodies could be part of God’s intentional design. This aligns with the idea that God has a plan and purpose for everything, including the formation of matter itself. Some believe that God ordained the process of stellar nucleosynthesis to create the building blocks of life, ensuring that everything in the universe follows His divine order.

You can buy 100 puzzles and mix all the pieces together, but they can only be used to make the puzzle that they came from. IF they are randomly cut. You suggest the puzzles are cut the same so as long as the pieces fit, then you have assembled the 100 puzzles.

Puzzles can be cut in two main ways: random cut and ribbon cut2.

• Ribbon-cut puzzles have a uniform grid pattern, with pieces shaped similarly, often in rows and columns. This makes them easier to assemble in a structured way.
• Random-cut puzzles have irregularly shaped pieces, making them more unique and sometimes more challenging to fit together.

 

[RandyK]

Carl Sagan’s famous statement that "we are made of star stuff" refers to the scientific fact that the elements in our bodies—carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and others—were originally forged in the nuclear reactions of ancient stars. When those stars exploded as supernovae, they scattered these elements across the cosmos, eventually forming planets, life, and everything we see today.

From a theological perspective, if randomness does not truly exist, as chaos theory suggests, then every element that makes up our bodies could be part of God’s intentional design. This aligns with the idea that God has a plan and purpose for everything, including the formation of matter itself. Some believe that God ordained the process of stellar nucleosynthesis to create the building blocks of life, ensuring that everything in the universe follows His divine order.

You can buy 100 puzzles and mix all the pieces together, but they can only be used to make the puzzle that they came from. IF they are randomly cut. You suggest the puzzles are cut the same so as long as the pieces fit, then you have assembled the 100 puzzles.

Puzzles can be cut in two main ways: random cut and ribbon cut2.

• Ribbon-cut puzzles have a uniform grid pattern, with pieces shaped similarly, often in rows and columns. This makes them easier to assemble in a structured way.
• Random-cut puzzles have irregularly shaped pieces, making them more unique and sometimes more challenging to fit together.

None of that has a thing to do with my question. How can the debris following someone's death belong to *one individual* when the scattered debris, no matter how un-random it is, is shared by more than one individual? A resurrection of one person ends up producing two different individuals?

 

[Elijah7777]

None of that has a thing to do with my question.

Sometimes, people do not see the connections that I see, which is fine; perhaps they are just more focused than I am.

 

[RandyK]

Sometimes, people do not see the connections that I see, which is fine; perhaps they are just more focused than I am.

I saw your connections and still did not recognize the relevance. I don't think I'm "blind" to your "space" references. Describing the origin of matter in the Big Bang or whatever, "Expansion of the Universe," and its development into stars, explosions, and its controlled debris has not a thing to do with the leftovers of human remains being catalogued, kept, and repackaged in the resurrection of an individual.

If an individual has shared elements with other individuals they own elements in common, not allowing a set to be specifically identified with any *one* individual. The resurrection of a person's identifiable elements is therefore impossible. The evolution of elements from some point in space has zero to do with this.

 

[Elijah7777]

I saw your connections and still did not recognize the relevance.

After my heart attack, I was placed in a drug-induced coma for a week. When I finally woke up, the doctor told me my thinking was jumping around a lot. My brother just laughed and said, "He's always been that way." So, they sent me home.

My wife had to call 911. The paramedics used their defibrillator to restart my heart. Later, I asked the fire chief about my odds of survival in that situation, and he told me they were about 1 in 1,200.

Now, I have a defibrillator implanted, but the battery will need to be replaced in a few years. That leaves me with a question—should I go ahead with the battery replacement, or take my chances?

 

[RandyK]

After my heart attack, I was placed in a drug-induced coma for a week. When I finally woke up, the doctor told me my thinking was jumping around a lot. My brother just laughed and said, "He's always been that way." So, they sent me home.

My wife had to call 911. The paramedics used their defibrillator to restart my heart. Later, I asked the fire chief about my odds of survival in that situation, and he told me they were about 1 in 1,200.

Now, I have a defibrillator implanted, but the battery will need to be replaced in a few years. That leaves me with a question—should I go ahead with the battery replacement, or take my chances?

I don't know. I like your "personal" posts--you're both smart and humble--a good combo for people. I respect your intelligence and your faith.

I just lost a friend who was much like you--really smart and yet very godly. He suffered over 10 strokes, and suffered, I believe, one or more heart attacks. And I believe he really "died" in the hospital. His relatives were called to the hospital.

His wife called me, and I'm sure others, to pray for him. She knew I didn't want to lose him yet. And I knew she still needed him. We in effect got on our knees and pleaded with God to save him.

Unbelievably, he came back from virtual death. And he was able to live a good number of years afterwards still in his right mind, and still able to get around. But he told me, "I wanted to go home. And I'm going to put a plaque near me, 'Do not resuscitate or resurrect!' " ;)

Well, I just saw him last year--we went to visit him in another state. He was reduced to an electric chair pretty much by then, and had to go to the hospital while we were there. I returned to my home state, and got word he had passed.

While I'm sad that my friend went home, I know that's what he wanted. So, I would just ask you: what do you want? Don't make a quick decision, because God hears our thoughts. If you're sitll doing good here, and I think you are, I'd prefer you stay. But sometimes God hears what *you* have to say. Or, you may simply want to hear what *He* has to say?

Thanks for confiding in me. My prayers are with you, brother.

 

[Elijah7777]

"I wanted to go home. And I'm going to put a plaque near me, 'Do not resuscitate or resurrect!' " ;)

"Oh yeah, there was a doctor in the emergency room trying to convince me to sign a living will—like they thought I was ready to check out! But I know that life isn’t just a number; the Bible tells us we are given 70 years, and if by reason of strength, 80. There are several scriptures that remind us we can add years to our life, and I believe every extra day is a gift. So, when I can’t pray for myself, my wife and son do it for me, lifting me up with faith and love. Their prayers remind me that every moment counts, and as long as they’re praying, I’m still fighting!"

 

[RandyK]

"Oh yeah, there was a doctor in the emergency room trying to convince me to sign a living will—like they thought I was ready to check out! But I know that life isn’t just a number; the Bible tells us we are given 70 years, and if by reason of strength, 80. There are several scriptures that remind us we can add years to our life, and I believe every extra day is a gift. So, when I can’t pray for myself, my wife and son do it for me, lifting me up with faith and love. Their prayers remind me that every moment counts, and as long as they’re praying, I’m still fighting!"

When I said my friend was confined to an "electric chair" I probably should have said he was confined to a "mobility chair!" ;)

Take care!

 

[Elijah7777]

When I said my friend was confined to an "electric chair" I probably should have said he was confined to a "mobility chair!" ;)

"I have a nurse who comes in once a week to encourage me to exercise and walk a little. I don’t know about your friend, but often, people are placed in wheelchairs because there is concern they might fall and get injured. We used to do ministry in nursing homes, and people would often want to rise from their chairs to celebrate and worship God. However, the staff wasn’t always comfortable with them doing that."

If they are paralized that can be difficult for them to get their miracles. A lot easier at first but the longer they go the more difficult it becomes. I did go to a teaching once where they said not to be discouraged with slow gradual improvement over time. We should not always limit God to instant miracles.

 

[RandyK]

"I have a nurse who comes in once a week to encourage me to exercise and walk a little. I don’t know about your friend, but often, people are placed in wheelchairs because there is concern they might fall and get injured. We used to do ministry in nursing homes, and people would often want to rise from their chairs to celebrate and worship God. However, the staff wasn’t always comfortable with them doing that."

If they are paralized that can be difficult for them to get their miracles. A lot easier at first but the longer they go the more difficult it becomes. I did go to a teaching once where they said not to be discouraged with slow gradual improvement over time. We should not always limit God to instant miracles.

I think my friend had peripheral neuropathy--his foot was in a lot of pain. He had only just received a new mobility chair/scooter.

I'm certainly glad I had one last chance to visit with him. He was an amazing guy. Faithful Christian for many years but with problems in family and relatives.

As long as we're alive God has us here for a purpose. I'm not looking over to the other side until God says so. For the present it's all about "scaling back."

 

[Elijah7777]

As long as we're alive God has us here for a purpose.

At conception we are all given our gifts, talents and abilities to bring Him praise, honor and glory. The question is what happens when we mess up and how does God work in our life to restore us back to His plan and purpose?

In John 9:1-3, where Jesus and his disciples encounter a man who was blind from birth. The disciples ask Jesus, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus responds that neither the man nor his parents sinned, but that his blindness was so that "the works of God might be displayed in him."

So the talk about God's

• Divine Will = What God wants to happen.
• Permissive Will = What God allows to happen, even if it's not ideal.

Even when people make bad choices, God can still bring good out of them

 

[RandyK]

At conception we are all given our gifts, talents and abilities to bring Him praise, honor and glory. The question is what happens when we mess up and how does God work in our life to restore us back to His plan and purpose?

In John 9:1-3, where Jesus and his disciples encounter a man who was blind from birth. The disciples ask Jesus, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus responds that neither the man nor his parents sinned, but that his blindness was so that "the works of God might be displayed in him."

So the talk about God's

• Divine Will = What God wants to happen.
• Permissive Will = What God allows to happen, even if it's not ideal.

Even when people make bad choices, God can still bring good out of them

Oh yea, that's my story, that's my song! ;) There's an element of prophecy in that...

 

[Elijah7777]

There's an element of prophecy in that...

God’s promises are conditional. We know that He causes all things to work together for good—but what is our part? To love Him and follow His plan and purpose for our lives. That means striving to be like David, which can be difficult to grasp, considering his history of violence.

Yet, what made David stand out was his heart for God—his humility, repentance, and deep desire to walk in God’s ways. His story reminds us that God doesn’t seek perfection; He seeks a heart fully devoted to Him. Despite his failures, David always returned to God in faith and repentance, making him a powerful example of God's grace and redemption.

Acts 13:22b David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will."

 

[RandyK]

God’s promises are conditional. We know that He causes all things to work together for good—but what is our part? To love Him and follow His plan and purpose for our lives. That means striving to be like David, which can be difficult to grasp, considering his history of violence.

Yet, what made David stand out was his heart for God—his humility, repentance, and deep desire to walk in God’s ways. His story reminds us that God doesn’t seek perfection; He seeks a heart fully devoted to Him. Despite his failures, David always returned to God in faith and repentance, making him a powerful example of God's grace and redemption.

Acts 13:22b David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will."

Beautifully said--thank you!