Origin of GOOD and EVIL!

[RevSRE]

I know there have been more discussions of where good and evil came from than there is time to read them, I just want to ask a simple question for consideration. Possibly we looked in the wrong places!
God is good in it absolute form all that is good is in and from GOD. To turn from God in any way is Evil.
Adams disobedience caused All MANKIND to be separated from God. This separation is the problem. “SIN” is disobedience to God and the resulting separation.
God is absolute Good, to turn from God in any way is Evil. Evil leads to sin and living like one wants. Salvation is in Obedience to God. Sin, all sin, is to disobey God.
Which “SIN” you do is not important.
When you turn from God you are as LOST as you can get.
If God is in you and you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are Holy because of His presence not anything you have done.
When we obey God and keep HIS COMMANDMENTS, when we love Jesus and serve Him as LORD it means something. We did nothing to save ourselves, but Jesus DID. When Jesus paid that Debt and we are saved by grace through faith; we are RESTORED TO FELLOWSHIP with GOD; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, Adopted into the family of God. Jesus is our intercessor at the throne of God and we are in His Blood Justified Innocent before eternities Judge. Old things are passed away and all things are made new. This body becomes the temple of God and we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as our High Priest.

Ok let me say this a little different. We are saved by OBEDIENCE to GOD, To love the LORD your God with all your Heart, Soul, and Might is to KNOW God. We were made to FELLOWSHIP with God. But this is about putting GOD first. IF you choose to reject GOD that is not to believe in GOD, you are as lost as you can be, all the rest fails to change that truth. Please do not get lost in always looking for (Gal 5:19) … “deeds of the flesh”, the list of actions we call sin, in every step of life. Failing to Love the LORD our GOD, to KNOW HIM and FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM makes all else we do of little meaning.

… Certain things have been decreed by the free determination of God, and one of these is the law of choice and consequences. God has decreed that all who willingly commit themselves to His Son Jesus Christ in the obedience of faith shall receive eternal life and become sons of God. He has also decreed that all who love darkness and continue in rebellion against the high authority of heaven shall remain in a state of spiritual alienation and suffer eternal death at last. Reducing the whole matter to individual terms, we arrive at some vital and highly personal conclusions. In the moral conflict now raging around us whoever is on God's side is on the winning side and cannot lose; whoever is on the other side is on the losing side and cannot win. Here there is no chance, no gamble.
There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on but no freedom to negotiate the results of the choice once it is made. When we choose to live for God we are to “Hear His voice and keep His commandments, LIVE IN His will. “By the mercy of God we may repent a wrong choice and alter the consequences by making a new and right choice. Beyond that we cannot go.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I know there have been more discussions of where good and evil came from than there is time to read them, I just want to ask a simple question for consideration. Possibly we looked in the wrong places!
God is good in it absolute form all that is good is in and from GOD. To turn from God in any way is Evil.
Adams disobedience caused All MANKIND to be separated from God. This separation is the problem. “SIN” is disobedience to God and the resulting separation.
God is absolute Good, to turn from God in any way is Evil. Evil leads to sin and living like one wants. Salvation is in Obedience to God. Sin, all sin, is to disobey God.
Which “SIN” you do is not important.
When you turn from God you are as LOST as you can get.
If God is in you and you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are Holy because of His presence not anything you have done.
When we obey God and keep HIS COMMANDMENTS, when we love Jesus and serve Him as LORD it means something. We did nothing to save ourselves, but Jesus DID. When Jesus paid that Debt and we are saved by grace through faith; we are RESTORED TO FELLOWSHIP with GOD; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, Adopted into the family of God. Jesus is our intercessor at the throne of God and we are in His Blood Justified Innocent before eternities Judge. Old things are passed away and all things are made new. This body becomes the temple of God and we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as our High Priest.

Ok let me say this a little different. We are saved by OBEDIENCE to GOD, To love the LORD your God with all your Heart, Soul, and Might is to KNOW God. We were made to FELLOWSHIP with God. But this is about putting GOD first. IF you choose to reject GOD that is not to believe in GOD, you are as lost as you can be, all the rest fails to change that truth. Please do not get lost in always looking for (Gal 5:19) … “deeds of the flesh”, the list of actions we call sin, in every step of life. Failing to Love the LORD our GOD, to KNOW HIM and FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM makes all else we do of little meaning.

… Certain things have been decreed by the free determination of God, and one of these is the law of choice and consequences. God has decreed that all who willingly commit themselves to His Son Jesus Christ in the obedience of faith shall receive eternal life and become sons of God. He has also decreed that all who love darkness and continue in rebellion against the high authority of heaven shall remain in a state of spiritual alienation and suffer eternal death at last. Reducing the whole matter to individual terms, we arrive at some vital and highly personal conclusions. In the moral conflict now raging around us whoever is on God's side is on the winning side and cannot lose; whoever is on the other side is on the losing side and cannot win. Here there is no chance, no gamble.
There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on but no freedom to negotiate the results of the choice once it is made. When we choose to live for God we are to “Hear His voice and keep His commandments, LIVE IN His will. “By the mercy of God we may repent a wrong choice and alter the consequences by making a new and right choice. Beyond that we cannot go.

Blessings in Christ, Reverend SRE, and thank you for sharing.

I know there are some to argue that if you lay too much stress on the Devil being the true origin of evil, you can fall into the habit of blaming everything on him and saying, "The Devil made me do it."

I know that isn't correct either, but I don't think man just sins on his own. I think he has a lot of help at all times, seducing and tempting him and setting him up. I think all of us are specifically targeted according to our weaknesses and tracked like prey by the demons assigned to us. Does that make it the Devil's fault? Of course not. As you say, we are given freedom of choice and freedom of will. But the origin of evil still rests with the Devil IMO. He is the father of lies, and all the other sins men have engaged in since the beginning.

Blessings, and I appreciate the post.
- H

 

[RevSRE]

I agree with your thoughts. Of course, we are caught in the battle between satan trying to interfere with God's will and our own willingness to do wrong. My point is that evil/sin is the OPPOSITE of God's GOOD. Satan made that choice, and humans do too. Satan is more than willing to help people do anything God said not to do. We must make a choice to torn to God , put HIM first in all we do in order to defeat satan and do God's will.

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan's temptations are real and those who fall to those temptations like Adam and Eve did in disobeying God's command to them will separate themselves from having fellowship with God and fall from being a part of His family. Does this mean God no longer loves them, no, as by His grace salvation has come to everyone by faith through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus in whom we can reconcile ourselves back to the Father as Jesus makes intercession for us before the Father.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Also study Colossians 3:1-17 about putting on the new Spiritual self.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are saved by OBEDIENCE to GOD,

We did nothing to save ourselves

The two statements above seem to contradict.

There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on

Who is "free" to choose? Is man "free" from God and external influences to choose and thus God is not free to choose, but subservient to man's choice in the matter ... or does God decide whom He chooses to save and man is subservient? ... in others words, if salvation of man a gift or a reward?

 

[tdidymas]

What's the point of the thread? Is it about what is the origin of evil? Or is it about how we ought to work around it? Obviously God is the origin of good, that's clear from Gen. 1. Yet, Jesus called Satan "the father of lies." So that would make Satan the origin of evil, since the Big Lie is the adversary of The Truth. That is, the origin of moral evil, as that is distinct from natural evil or circumstantial evil.

In this life we find ourselves stuck in a world full of evil. The only 'option' we have is to trust God, because He is sovereign. It means that in a world full of sinful people who have conflicting desires and constantly make bad choices, God is so wise and powerful that He always has control of all things.

There are 2 proverbs that I remember often: "in all of your getting, get wisdom," and "trust in the Lord with all your heart..."

 

[Oseas]

John 17
1 JESUS lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give ETERNAL LIFE to as many as thou hast given Him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true GOD, and JESUS Christ, whom Thou hast sent... 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy Truth: thy Word is Truth. (The Word is GOD) 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the Truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their Word; (After 2000 years, here we are under the Power of this prayer of our Lord, sanctified through the Truth, because we have believed in JESUS our Lord). 21 They all may be One; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be One in us: that the WORLD may believe that Thou hast sent me. ->(This is the only condition or the manner by which the WORLD may believe in JESUS as the Savior, our Savior, and also that JESUS was sent to the world by GOD the Father).
Amen.

Let us praise the Lord in Spirit and in Truth, with this wonderful song

-

HOW CAN THE MEEK INHERIT THE EARTH? | Friends Of Jesus

The LORD said: Matthew 5:v.5 combined with Revelation 5:v.10 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mat.5.v.5 And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign

friendsofjesus.proboards.com

 

[Elijah7777]

God is absolute Good, to turn from God in any way is Evil.

Everyone seems to agree. God is good and to turn away from God is evil. So evil is anything God is not a part of. We ask why does God allow evil and the answer is always the same because you can not have love without the freedom to choose.

 

[Groovy]

I know there have been more discussions of where good and evil came from than there is time to read them, I just want to ask a simple question for consideration. Possibly we looked in the wrong places!
God is good in it absolute form all that is good is in and from GOD. To turn from God in any way is Evil.
Adams disobedience caused All MANKIND to be separated from God. This separation is the problem. “SIN” is disobedience to God and the resulting separation.
God is absolute Good, to turn from God in any way is Evil. Evil leads to sin and living like one wants. Salvation is in Obedience to God. Sin, all sin, is to disobey God.
Which “SIN” you do is not important.
When you turn from God you are as LOST as you can get.
If God is in you and you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are Holy because of His presence not anything you have done.
When we obey God and keep HIS COMMANDMENTS, when we love Jesus and serve Him as LORD it means something. We did nothing to save ourselves, but Jesus DID. When Jesus paid that Debt and we are saved by grace through faith; we are RESTORED TO FELLOWSHIP with GOD; we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, Adopted into the family of God. Jesus is our intercessor at the throne of God and we are in His Blood Justified Innocent before eternities Judge. Old things are passed away and all things are made new. This body becomes the temple of God and we are Priest of the Most High God with Jesus as our High Priest.

Ok let me say this a little different. We are saved by OBEDIENCE to GOD, To love the LORD your God with all your Heart, Soul, and Might is to KNOW God. We were made to FELLOWSHIP with God. But this is about putting GOD first. IF you choose to reject GOD that is not to believe in GOD, you are as lost as you can be, all the rest fails to change that truth. Please do not get lost in always looking for (Gal 5:19) … “deeds of the flesh”, the list of actions we call sin, in every step of life. Failing to Love the LORD our GOD, to KNOW HIM and FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM makes all else we do of little meaning.

… Certain things have been decreed by the free determination of God, and one of these is the law of choice and consequences. God has decreed that all who willingly commit themselves to His Son Jesus Christ in the obedience of faith shall receive eternal life and become sons of God. He has also decreed that all who love darkness and continue in rebellion against the high authority of heaven shall remain in a state of spiritual alienation and suffer eternal death at last. Reducing the whole matter to individual terms, we arrive at some vital and highly personal conclusions. In the moral conflict now raging around us whoever is on God's side is on the winning side and cannot lose; whoever is on the other side is on the losing side and cannot win. Here there is no chance, no gamble.
There is freedom to choose which side we shall be on but no freedom to negotiate the results of the choice once it is made. When we choose to live for God we are to “Hear His voice and keep His commandments, LIVE IN His will. “By the mercy of God we may repent a wrong choice and alter the consequences by making a new and right choice. Beyond that we cannot go.

I agree with what you said and have considered this question for some fifty years, so please allow me to share my insight before reading the rest of this thread:

A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

 

[Groovy]

Everyone seems to agree. God is good and to turn away from God is evil. So evil is anything God is not a part of. We ask why does God allow evil and the answer is always the same because you can not have love without the freedom to choose.

My amen is in post #10. The entire Bible and God's plan of salvation only makes sense IF love = MFW is true.
The tulip dogma makes history and soteriology a farce (as Blain has also noted :^).

 

[Elijah7777]

My amen is in post #10. The entire Bible and God's plan of salvation only makes sense IF love = MFW is true.
The tulip dogma makes history and soteriology a farce (as Blain has also noted :^).

They say that "all things work together for good" but they leave off the part of for "those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose". The message gets lost when people quote out of context like that. (in regards to tulip)

 

[Groovy]

They say that "all things work together for good" but they leave off the part of for "those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose". The message gets lost when people quote out of context like that. (in regards to tulip)

Yes. Not sure what the OP had in mind, but I see that we are gravitating toward a discussion of good and evil in the context of the tulip-mfw debate. Would you be interested in pursuing a study of what Romans 1-11 has to say in this regard? If so, I am prepared to lead out, unless other readers have a different preference.

 

[follower]

Possibly we looked in the wrong places!

hmmm. This then is a question ?
Or, rather, it is quite obvious that men look in the wrong places - almost always believing some man or men instead of Jesus. No man nor men can be trusted. Jesus is always truthful, and is truth. The Word of God is so sharp, sharper than any sword, it divides spirit and soul, bone and marrow, and always exposes the thoughts (and sins) of all men.

 

[Groovy]

hmmm. This then is a question ?
Or, rather, it is quite obvious that men look in the wrong places - almost always believing some man or men instead of Jesus. No man nor men can be trusted. Jesus is always truthful, and is truth. The Word of God is so sharp, sharper than any sword, it divides spirit and soul, bone and marrow, and always exposes the thoughts (and sins) of all men.

Well, Paul indicated in 2Tim. 3:14 that some folks can be trusted, but because no one is perfect, we must also also verify by testing per 1Thes. 5:21, presumably by comparing new info with clear Scripture (cf. Phil. 3:12-17).

 

[follower]

Well, Paul indicated in 2Tim. 3:14 that some folks can be trusted, but because no one is perfect, we must also also verify by testing per 1Thes. 5:21, presumably by comparing new info with clear Scripture (cf. Phil. 3:12-17).

He did not say to trust man or flesh.

 

[Groovy]

He did not say to trust man or flesh.

I did not say he said, I said he indicated (which means implied) that Timothy's Christian grandmother and mother (2Tim. 1:5) were trustworthy or spiritual.

 

[Elijah7777]

Would you be interested in pursuing a study of what Romans 1-11

People do not get it. Romans is a discussion of what it means to be good and what it means to be right. Paul says: "It is written" he is talking about what David wrote. David loved the Law of God. To study Romans we need to study Psalms. Which is good for me because I like to study Hebrew a million, billion times more than to study Greek.

 

[Groovy]

People do not get it. Romans is a discussion of what it means to be good and what it means to be right. Paul says: "It is written" he is talking about what David wrote. David loved the Law of God. To study Romans we need to study Psalms. Which is good for me because I like to study Hebrew a million, billion times more than to study Greek.

I will interpret that to mean "yes", so I will begin by presenting part of Romans 1-3 and then you may want to share Psalms that are relevant.

A systematic study of election might begin well by examining what seems to be the fountainhead of the TULIP dogma, namely Romans 9:10-24, in the context of the rest of relevant Scripture in Romans regarding salvation/election (s/e), which is Romans 1-11:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

Over...

 

[tdidymas]

My amen is in post #10. The entire Bible and God's plan of salvation only makes sense IF love = MFW is true.
The tulip dogma makes history and soteriology a farce (as Blain has also noted :^).

"mfw" is from a human perspective. "tulip dogma" is from a spiritual perspective. It's not one or the other, but both/and. The foreknowledge of God does not merely mean foresight, but includes all the intricate detail of how God designed everything. It includes God foreloving the ones He chose "before the foundation of the world." So then, the scripture does not contradict itself, and neither does Paul contradict himself.

So when God passes by most people (the non-elect), it doesn't make Him the author of sin. He is choosing to exercise His justice on people who deserve it. But for His elect, He chooses to exercise mercy instead. So then, unconditional election glorifies God's choice, whereas "mfw" glorifies man's choice.

 

[Groovy]

"mfw" is from a human perspective. "tulip dogma" is from a spiritual perspective. It's not one or the other, but both/and. The foreknowledge of God does not merely mean foresight, but includes all the intricate detail of how God designed everything. It includes God foreloving the ones He chose "before the foundation of the world." So then, the scripture does not contradict itself, and neither does Paul contradict himself.

So when God passes by most people (the non-elect), it doesn't make Him the author of sin. He is choosing to exercise His justice on people who deserve it. But for His elect, He chooses to exercise mercy instead. So then, unconditional election glorifies God's choice, whereas "mfw" glorifies man's choice.

Glad to meet you, td. Your concern to affirm the sovereignty of God is valid, but your solution is problematic, because you deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners (because of MFW) for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

May I suggest that the apparent reasons for these errors are threefold:

1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy,

2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and

3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.

Also, there are a couple of verses in Romans cited in post 19 that you need to address:

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism.

And you say...