Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
It's the inspired Word of God, Joe.
It's the inspired Word of God, Joe.
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Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination ?
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
- Start date
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
It's a huge leap to claim someone has lost their salvation because they backslide, or even went into secular work. One's salvation can not be judged on such flimsy evidence. Paul spoke of being deserted several times...undoubtedly it was dangerous to be around Paul. Salvation isn't lost because we fall short in some area, and since Demas isn't mentioned after this, it does not mean he wasn't saved or had lost his salvation. Here we see where Mark left Paul, also, and there were contentions among them.
Acts 15:37-40 "And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God."
Hello Smaller,
With regards to your comment “Fact is that no such examples of any specific believer losing their salvation exists in the text.â€
Demas is an example of a christian who lost his salvation.
Demas was a fellow co-worker with Paul (Col4:14 & Phi24) who was very particular about whom he worked in sharing the gospel (Acts15:37-41).
However by 2Tim4:10 Demas has deserted Paul
10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.
James 4:4 & 1Jhn2:15 tell us about those who love the world & want to make themselves a friend of the world & how it affects their relationship with God.
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
So by loving the world Demas did not have the love of God in Him & made himself an enemy of God & enemies of God do not end up in heaven for eternity!!
There are more examples Smaller of named Christians who lost their salvation.
For example –
Hymenaues & Philetus 2Tim2:17-18
Simon – Acts8:9-25 noting v13!!!!
There are also quite a few examples of un named christians who depart from the faith & lose their salvation + examples from Jesus parables eg. Luke 15:24 & 32 noting the prodigal was dead & is alive AGAIN - obviously not physically dead, it must mean spiritually dead, alive again means he was previously right with God.
also see the parable of the sower Luke 8:13 believe for awhile & then depart during a time of testing = saved for awhile & then lose their salvation during a time of testing.
I hope the above prompts you to take a new look at the scriptures as those who believe in OSAS are unable to read/interpret many sections of the Bible according to the laws of grammar.
It's a huge leap to claim someone has lost their salvation because they backslide, or even went into secular work. One's salvation can not be judged on such flimsy evidence. Paul spoke of being deserted several times...undoubtedly it was dangerous to be around Paul. Salvation isn't lost because we fall short in some area, and since Demas isn't mentioned after this, it does not mean he wasn't saved or had lost his salvation. Here we see where Mark left Paul, also, and there were contentions among them.
Acts 15:37-40 "And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God."
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Glorydaz, I did a word search and didn't find your name in the Inspired Word of God.
Please forgive me if I may seem politically incorrect - nowadays, everyone likes to think that they are "good with God" - a big presumption. I, like Paul, will work out my salvation in fear and trembling, knowing that God is sovereign and it is HIS will that will be done.
Regards
Glorydaz, I did a word search and didn't find your name in the Inspired Word of God.
Please forgive me if I may seem politically incorrect - nowadays, everyone likes to think that they are "good with God" - a big presumption. I, like Paul, will work out my salvation in fear and trembling, knowing that God is sovereign and it is HIS will that will be done.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
So perhaps you are suggesting an Inquisition??? Weren't you the same guy who "didn't want to go down that road"?
It seems that the Church can't please anyone. Either too many rules or not enough... The teachings are there - love of neighbor (and EVERYONE is our neighbor). It is up to the individual to bend their will to the Will of God as expressed by the Church. God provides the grace. Are you really expecting a Catholic Talmud???
Nor do I believe that you no longer continue to hold a grudge against brothers and sisters. It shows in your rants! So much for your "love of neighbor"...
Excuse me if ignore the rest of your pet peeve rant. It is unbecoming from someone who is not practicing what he preaches. I have tried to explain another point of view. Apparently, you are content with your own and not willing to give others the benefit of the doubt or to grant forgiveness... Matthew 5 speaks of the threat of eternal hell for such people. There it is...
Agree. But that doesn't mean we are to wait and become absolutely perfect before we call others to task for not following the Christian mandate. You are doing the same thing. You are not perfect. You must admit that evil is present within you. Yet, your complaint about condemning believers, valid in of itself, appears to overlook your very own "rules".
I disagree. The point of chastisement is to AVOID that very idea of going to hell. IF condemnation was impossible for the "believer", than chastisement would serve little purpose (except for the masocist/sadist)
I never said I was! What did I say that led you to make that statement?
I can see this issue has become way too personal for you. Get over it. Grant forgiveness and free yourself from this enslavement. Pray for these immature Christians who make these comments. Do you think this is God's Will, that you become filled with hatred towards people who make silly comments?
Regards
So perhaps you are suggesting an Inquisition??? Weren't you the same guy who "didn't want to go down that road"?
It seems that the Church can't please anyone. Either too many rules or not enough... The teachings are there - love of neighbor (and EVERYONE is our neighbor). It is up to the individual to bend their will to the Will of God as expressed by the Church. God provides the grace. Are you really expecting a Catholic Talmud???
Nor do I believe that you no longer continue to hold a grudge against brothers and sisters. It shows in your rants! So much for your "love of neighbor"...
Excuse me if ignore the rest of your pet peeve rant. It is unbecoming from someone who is not practicing what he preaches. I have tried to explain another point of view. Apparently, you are content with your own and not willing to give others the benefit of the doubt or to grant forgiveness... Matthew 5 speaks of the threat of eternal hell for such people. There it is...
Agree. But that doesn't mean we are to wait and become absolutely perfect before we call others to task for not following the Christian mandate. You are doing the same thing. You are not perfect. You must admit that evil is present within you. Yet, your complaint about condemning believers, valid in of itself, appears to overlook your very own "rules".
I disagree. The point of chastisement is to AVOID that very idea of going to hell. IF condemnation was impossible for the "believer", than chastisement would serve little purpose (except for the masocist/sadist)
I never said I was! What did I say that led you to make that statement?
I can see this issue has become way too personal for you. Get over it. Grant forgiveness and free yourself from this enslavement. Pray for these immature Christians who make these comments. Do you think this is God's Will, that you become filled with hatred towards people who make silly comments?
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
No, I didn't. That is from "Thayer's Lexicon". To sigh is to "sigh as in prayer". Your use of the definition - "to sigh" is to "sigh as in prayer".
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4727&t=KJV
Notice, when the word is using "sigh", it speaks of sighing as in prayer, not your definition. It then goes on to mention James 5's use of "stenazo". It states "to murmur", which, for some odd reason, you deny!
I am not a Greek expert, so I defer to Thayer's normally. If you think Thayer's is unreliable, then please state why. Until then, your interpretation is faulty. To 'hold a grudge' in James means what it says. Not to "sigh". The idea of being patient, expressed in the prior verse, should be enough to verify that "to hold a grudge" is the result of NOT following the idiom - to be patient. Those who are patient will not hold a grudge.
No I am not.
According to "Blue Letter Bible", the KJV uses "grudge" three times. James 5, Leviticus 19, and Psalm 59. They all mean the same thing - to murmur... Murmuring is not looked favorably upon in the Bible...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=grudge&t=KJV
Why are you complicating matters? "Grudge" is an effective translation and fits into the context of James. It is also in line with Jesus' statement in Matthew 5. Holding a grudge against a brother CAN subject one to a fiery judgment - and we know Which Judge James is speaking of in James 5 - Jesus Christ. Don't you believe what He said in Matthew 5???
I'm afraid you have not proven the charge false.
Regards
No, I didn't. That is from "Thayer's Lexicon". To sigh is to "sigh as in prayer". Your use of the definition - "to sigh" is to "sigh as in prayer".
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4727&t=KJV
Notice, when the word is using "sigh", it speaks of sighing as in prayer, not your definition. It then goes on to mention James 5's use of "stenazo". It states "to murmur", which, for some odd reason, you deny!
I am not a Greek expert, so I defer to Thayer's normally. If you think Thayer's is unreliable, then please state why. Until then, your interpretation is faulty. To 'hold a grudge' in James means what it says. Not to "sigh". The idea of being patient, expressed in the prior verse, should be enough to verify that "to hold a grudge" is the result of NOT following the idiom - to be patient. Those who are patient will not hold a grudge.
No I am not.
According to "Blue Letter Bible", the KJV uses "grudge" three times. James 5, Leviticus 19, and Psalm 59. They all mean the same thing - to murmur... Murmuring is not looked favorably upon in the Bible...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=grudge&t=KJV
Why are you complicating matters? "Grudge" is an effective translation and fits into the context of James. It is also in line with Jesus' statement in Matthew 5. Holding a grudge against a brother CAN subject one to a fiery judgment - and we know Which Judge James is speaking of in James 5 - Jesus Christ. Don't you believe what He said in Matthew 5???
I'm afraid you have not proven the charge false.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
None of this is addressing our area of contention. False teachers are those who have fallen from the righteous path, so states Peter. He doesn't say "they never were part of us". Nor does verse 20 necessarily apply only to "false teachers".
Let me post this verse again for you. Please read it. Carefully.
For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.
It is clear that these people, whoever they were, WERE INDEED ONCE part of the community, since only THEY can "fly from the pollutions of the world". Other translations say "escape". AND THEN, they AGAIN were entangled!!!
Again, I ask you, Glorydaz, by what OTHER name can we escape sin???
You simply are ignoring what the Scriptures state. I am sorry to have to burst your OSAS bubble, but if you truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you cannot continue to ignore this verse and what it states.
Man is guided by one of two principles. I didn't mean we are possessed by one or the other. If the demons are removed, it is clear that we are then guided by the OTHER principle, God's Spirit. We don't just sit there in a stupor, being empty in the mean time of any life or decision-making ability.
HANGING AROUND THE CHURCH CROWD IS THE ESCAPE OF THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD???
One doesn't escape sin by sitting in a pew! Oh brother, YOU are saying this???
WOW.
"Being saved" is said in Scriptures using many different words.
If A = B
and B= C
then A = C.
"escape the pollutions of the world" is done ONLY through Jesus Christ's abiding presence, for John has stated that obedience to the Commandments is LIVING PROOF of His presence within us. Such a person is thus saved, since Christ abides in the saved, granting them life.
"To escape the pollutions of the world" is another way of saying 'he is saved'. The Bible elsewhere says there is NO OTHER means of doing this other than through Jesus Christ.
The rest of your comments are based upon the faulty idea that the person in question never obeyed the commandments and remained in sin, despite the text clearly stating that they DID escape sin -and then RETURNED to a life of sin.
Yes, very clearly.
Regards
None of this is addressing our area of contention. False teachers are those who have fallen from the righteous path, so states Peter. He doesn't say "they never were part of us". Nor does verse 20 necessarily apply only to "false teachers".
Let me post this verse again for you. Please read it. Carefully.
For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.
It is clear that these people, whoever they were, WERE INDEED ONCE part of the community, since only THEY can "fly from the pollutions of the world". Other translations say "escape". AND THEN, they AGAIN were entangled!!!
Again, I ask you, Glorydaz, by what OTHER name can we escape sin???
You simply are ignoring what the Scriptures state. I am sorry to have to burst your OSAS bubble, but if you truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you cannot continue to ignore this verse and what it states.
Man is guided by one of two principles. I didn't mean we are possessed by one or the other. If the demons are removed, it is clear that we are then guided by the OTHER principle, God's Spirit. We don't just sit there in a stupor, being empty in the mean time of any life or decision-making ability.
HANGING AROUND THE CHURCH CROWD IS THE ESCAPE OF THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD???
One doesn't escape sin by sitting in a pew! Oh brother, YOU are saying this???
WOW.
"Being saved" is said in Scriptures using many different words.
If A = B
and B= C
then A = C.
"escape the pollutions of the world" is done ONLY through Jesus Christ's abiding presence, for John has stated that obedience to the Commandments is LIVING PROOF of His presence within us. Such a person is thus saved, since Christ abides in the saved, granting them life.
"To escape the pollutions of the world" is another way of saying 'he is saved'. The Bible elsewhere says there is NO OTHER means of doing this other than through Jesus Christ.
The rest of your comments are based upon the faulty idea that the person in question never obeyed the commandments and remained in sin, despite the text clearly stating that they DID escape sin -and then RETURNED to a life of sin.
Yes, very clearly.
Regards
HisSheep
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Once a man has been made alive with Christ (Eph 2:5 style) there is no turning back. Plenty of scripture to support this; consider Eph 1:11-14, for one.
There are people (like those in the parable of the sower who are like the stony places) who hear and receive the word, but are not actually born again. These people did not “loose†their salvation; they were never actually born again. Any other theology asserts that God is losing souls that He wants to save. Heresy!
Those of us who are born again will testify that the change in the believer is the proof of salvation to that believer. The most convincing facet of our new life is the abrupt change in our desires. Even when our works fall short, we have the assurance that our desires are not what they were when we were unregenerate. What else can account for this change but the grace of God?
This change of heart (Ezekiel 36:26) is the proof to the believer of their new standing with God.
Good on Grubal for citing 1 John 5:13!
For the record; we should not be at all surprised to find Roman theology telling us to doubt our salvation…
-HisSheep
Once a man has been made alive with Christ (Eph 2:5 style) there is no turning back. Plenty of scripture to support this; consider Eph 1:11-14, for one.
There are people (like those in the parable of the sower who are like the stony places) who hear and receive the word, but are not actually born again. These people did not “loose†their salvation; they were never actually born again. Any other theology asserts that God is losing souls that He wants to save. Heresy!
Those of us who are born again will testify that the change in the believer is the proof of salvation to that believer. The most convincing facet of our new life is the abrupt change in our desires. Even when our works fall short, we have the assurance that our desires are not what they were when we were unregenerate. What else can account for this change but the grace of God?
This change of heart (Ezekiel 36:26) is the proof to the believer of their new standing with God.
Good on Grubal for citing 1 John 5:13!
For the record; we should not be at all surprised to find Roman theology telling us to doubt our salvation…
-HisSheep
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
And plenty to support the other opinion on "Turning back"...
Just for starters:
2 Peter 2:20-21
Hebrews 10:26-27
Ephesians 1 doesn't say anything about guaranteed and an impossible lose of eternal salvation, but the predestined call of those of the Church.
The parable states that they had FAITH. And aren't we saved by faith? Thus, if they had faith, they were saved...
God desires all men to be saved.
All men aren't saved.
This is clarified by recognizing that God has a will that allows men to sin.
And return to the vomit of their former life...
It doesn't follow that THESE CURRENT DESIRES will remain top priorities in our life. The Spiritual walk ebbs and flows, it doesn't remain at a high all the time. People can lose their faith gradually and fall away into their former life. There are numerous examples of such people...
Careful now...
For the record, the Catholic Church is not telling you to doubt your salvation. Just not to be presumptive...
Regards
And plenty to support the other opinion on "Turning back"...
Just for starters:
2 Peter 2:20-21
Hebrews 10:26-27
Ephesians 1 doesn't say anything about guaranteed and an impossible lose of eternal salvation, but the predestined call of those of the Church.
The parable states that they had FAITH. And aren't we saved by faith? Thus, if they had faith, they were saved...
God desires all men to be saved.
All men aren't saved.
This is clarified by recognizing that God has a will that allows men to sin.
And return to the vomit of their former life...
It doesn't follow that THESE CURRENT DESIRES will remain top priorities in our life. The Spiritual walk ebbs and flows, it doesn't remain at a high all the time. People can lose their faith gradually and fall away into their former life. There are numerous examples of such people...
Careful now...
For the record, the Catholic Church is not telling you to doubt your salvation. Just not to be presumptive...
Regards
smaller
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Oh please. The evil present within any given person is no different. It's evil, period. The results on the outside of the cup are a reflection of what is within.
I've told you repeatedly that I believe they are ALL saved, a position you can't even hold. So put your little fear weapon away.
That being said also does not mean I have to agree with the evil present in anyone. People who express their fears or threats about God burning believers alive forever are to me, certainly not loving them and are actually reflecting 'what is in them.' The conveyors 'evil present' is not one whit different than those they threaten with eternal torture in fire. It's a hypocritical measure by the users of same.
A. Saved
B. Evil present regardless
One I can agree with. The other I don't. I also understand this poses a dilemma for your mind because you perhaps consider you are exempt from B. while you seek to heap burning other believers alive forever. I consider that to be a reflection of the desires of B. internally.
Love me you cry, while you dangle other believers over the fire? lol
I can love you just fine and disagree with your intentions and purposes when it comes to B.
Some God allows to see, some He doesn't. Not my call. It's as plain to me (now) as the nose on my face. But one can set the facts in front of 'believers' all the day long and they will still insist on burning believers alive and ignoring such are fallen victims of SATAN. When other believers can't see this fact, I say they are blinded by that same power, and that by Gods intentions in dealing with that 'entity' within them that is not them.
Again, not my call.
Nope, that's not 'good enough for YOU.' You MUST look at the heretical postions of other believers, mark them as such and KEEP them OUT of the Love of God.
To me, that is a working of Satan in believers. Sorry. No offense intended to YOU as a believer. You understand I don't see 'just you.'
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
You see out of your own mouth the 'working' in you does exactly that. You cannot GO INTO the Love of God securely NOR do you allow others in.
And in classic fashion you cannot DIVIDE yourself from your evil present that is NOT YOU. That is the dilemma of the Pharisee in whom Jesus addressed 'children of the devil.'
Now, mark this carefully. I do not believe PEOPLE are DEVILS. They are two separate entities ONE most often being OVER the other.
So please spare me the anti-RCC whine. They are my brothers and sisters. The other working IS NOT.
If you feel the burning inside you when this fact is disclosed and the hatred rising up in you, the other party is getting mad.
If God allows you to see you will have no problems with me. In any case I'll repeat, I KNOW you are saved, even if YOU DON'T.
How weird is that? lol
enjoy!
s
Oh please. The evil present within any given person is no different. It's evil, period. The results on the outside of the cup are a reflection of what is within.
Service under fear and threat is not my ideal, no. Nor am I required to play that game, fortunately.
Look, you can spin away on your RCC witchhunt and you won't find it with me. They are people no different than anyone else.
I've told you repeatedly that I believe they are ALL saved, a position you can't even hold. So put your little fear weapon away.
That being said also does not mean I have to agree with the evil present in anyone. People who express their fears or threats about God burning believers alive forever are to me, certainly not loving them and are actually reflecting 'what is in them.' The conveyors 'evil present' is not one whit different than those they threaten with eternal torture in fire. It's a hypocritical measure by the users of same.
Well, you don't appear to be able to 'get the picture here.' What do you expect to see but AGAIN your own reflection.
A. Saved
B. Evil present regardless
One I can agree with. The other I don't. I also understand this poses a dilemma for your mind because you perhaps consider you are exempt from B. while you seek to heap burning other believers alive forever. I consider that to be a reflection of the desires of B. internally.
Love me you cry, while you dangle other believers over the fire? lol
I can love you just fine and disagree with your intentions and purposes when it comes to B.
We've had this discussion repeatedly as well and again you don't see 'your sin' as connected to THE DEVIL. You see only people, so I expect your vision to be intentionally clouded by not being able to see the facts of scripture and only see people when that is factually NOT the case.
Some God allows to see, some He doesn't. Not my call. It's as plain to me (now) as the nose on my face. But one can set the facts in front of 'believers' all the day long and they will still insist on burning believers alive and ignoring such are fallen victims of SATAN. When other believers can't see this fact, I say they are blinded by that same power, and that by Gods intentions in dealing with that 'entity' within them that is not them.
Again, not my call.
Yeah, pot calling kettle. My favorite Gospel, NOT. Of course you don't see the irony of your own imperfections sitting in the seat of burning believers alive forever do you? No, you will always justify yourself by whatever set of actions you believe 'keep you safe' all the while not EVEN seeing it is THE LOVE OF GOD that keeps believers SAFE FOREVER AND ETERNALLY.
Nope, that's not 'good enough for YOU.' You MUST look at the heretical postions of other believers, mark them as such and KEEP them OUT of the Love of God.
To me, that is a working of Satan in believers. Sorry. No offense intended to YOU as a believer. You understand I don't see 'just you.'
Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
You see out of your own mouth the 'working' in you does exactly that. You cannot GO INTO the Love of God securely NOR do you allow others in.
And in classic fashion you cannot DIVIDE yourself from your evil present that is NOT YOU. That is the dilemma of the Pharisee in whom Jesus addressed 'children of the devil.'
Now, mark this carefully. I do not believe PEOPLE are DEVILS. They are two separate entities ONE most often being OVER the other.
So please spare me the anti-RCC whine. They are my brothers and sisters. The other working IS NOT.
If you feel the burning inside you when this fact is disclosed and the hatred rising up in you, the other party is getting mad.
If God allows you to see you will have no problems with me. In any case I'll repeat, I KNOW you are saved, even if YOU DON'T.
How weird is that? lol
enjoy!
s
Last edited by a moderator:
Adullam
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
We will be judged by our faithfulness and love towards God. Not everyone who is born into a family is faithful to it. Not everyone that begins in holiness finishes in holiness. Not everyone who is loved loves in return.
We will be judged by our faithfulness and love towards God. Not everyone who is born into a family is faithful to it. Not everyone that begins in holiness finishes in holiness. Not everyone who is loved loves in return.
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
You are avoiding the question... How much would you like to persecute and condemn people for condemning others to fry like weiners?
Shall we pull out the thumbscrews? A bit of torture? Would that be acceptable to your desire for revenge? Or maybe turn this into a "mortal sin", one that requires Confession before receiving the Eucharist??? Exactly what are you expecting to see? A Catholic Talmud that speaks of every possible human action, calling this or that a sin, and other actions as "not quite" a sin??? And how exactly are we going to enforce this?
The INDIVIDUAL is responsible for his own words, not the Church, not anyone else. The teachings are there, teachings that condemn condemning ...
Non-sequitar alert... Me neither.
Ironically, however, that is what you are calling for, but don't want to admit it. YOU desires "rules" to be put in place that 'punish' those who speak of frying weiner Protestants. Are you forgeting your own point of view in your zeal for perfection amongst the Church? I AM SHOCKED!
DUDE! YOU are the one on the RCC witchhunt!!! Did your wife grab the keyboard from you and start typing or what??? :eeeekkk
I'm sorry, but this is not productive. Excuse me if I close this conversation. I would suggest considering "remove the log from your own eye" before speaking of the 'catholic' splinter that you supposedly see because there is not a "weiner roast" patrol going door-to-door and dragging people to be punished for silly comments.
Forgive and move on...
Regards
You are avoiding the question... How much would you like to persecute and condemn people for condemning others to fry like weiners?
Shall we pull out the thumbscrews? A bit of torture? Would that be acceptable to your desire for revenge? Or maybe turn this into a "mortal sin", one that requires Confession before receiving the Eucharist??? Exactly what are you expecting to see? A Catholic Talmud that speaks of every possible human action, calling this or that a sin, and other actions as "not quite" a sin??? And how exactly are we going to enforce this?
The INDIVIDUAL is responsible for his own words, not the Church, not anyone else. The teachings are there, teachings that condemn condemning ...
Non-sequitar alert... Me neither.
Ironically, however, that is what you are calling for, but don't want to admit it. YOU desires "rules" to be put in place that 'punish' those who speak of frying weiner Protestants. Are you forgeting your own point of view in your zeal for perfection amongst the Church? I AM SHOCKED!
DUDE! YOU are the one on the RCC witchhunt!!! Did your wife grab the keyboard from you and start typing or what??? :eeeekkk
I'm sorry, but this is not productive. Excuse me if I close this conversation. I would suggest considering "remove the log from your own eye" before speaking of the 'catholic' splinter that you supposedly see because there is not a "weiner roast" patrol going door-to-door and dragging people to be punished for silly comments.
Forgive and move on...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Scriptures note Abraham/Abram was justified on three separate occasions.
I am not so certain that they are different events, Vic. When one is just, they are being made holy (sanctified).
Regards
We really need to be careful to not confuse justification with sanctification. Two different events in the believer's life here on earth.
Scriptures note Abraham/Abram was justified on three separate occasions.
I am not so certain that they are different events, Vic. When one is just, they are being made holy (sanctified).
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
True.
Another example: Everything in a Body is not drawing life from it. The organs and cells draw life from the Body, a splinter or a bullet, while within the Body, is not drawing life from the Body. People can be part of the Church, be within it, but it doesn't follow that they are drawing life from Christ.
Regards
True.
Another example: Everything in a Body is not drawing life from it. The organs and cells draw life from the Body, a splinter or a bullet, while within the Body, is not drawing life from the Body. People can be part of the Church, be within it, but it doesn't follow that they are drawing life from Christ.
Regards
jasoncran
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
what did the idea the gift of salvation mean to the jewish believers
think of it this way as any devout god fearing jew of that day would.
the father asks for a sacrifice for your sins and you cant provide that so he then sends a ram in the bush to atone you. that is what the gift is.
you did nothing to earn it but you also have to act like he did change you. the natural of the sacrificial system has change from then to the prayer of pentanance to the lord each day. the law being written on our hearts is that situation where we are saved and have god in our hearts. in the old law days the LORD didnt do that , he spoke to priests first then they ministered unto you.
what did the idea the gift of salvation mean to the jewish believers
think of it this way as any devout god fearing jew of that day would.
the father asks for a sacrifice for your sins and you cant provide that so he then sends a ram in the bush to atone you. that is what the gift is.
you did nothing to earn it but you also have to act like he did change you. the natural of the sacrificial system has change from then to the prayer of pentanance to the lord each day. the law being written on our hearts is that situation where we are saved and have god in our hearts. in the old law days the LORD didnt do that , he spoke to priests first then they ministered unto you.
smaller
Member
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Yeah, lol. I see you all saved and you STILL find fault. go figure.
s
Yeah, lol. I see you all saved and you STILL find fault. go figure.
s
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Your snideness aside....... Paul was not speaking of his eternal salvation. We don't "work out" our eternal salvation...that is a gift of God when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Fear and trembling means with respect and reverance to God.
Paul is here speaking of the need for the believer to continue in the Word because he won't be there with them. Not every time you read the word "salvation" in the Bible is it talking about eternal salvation. In this case it speaks of a productive walk of obedience to God which brings forth fruit.
If you take the verse in context, you will notice what comes next..."IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU...."
Phil.2:12-13 - "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We can know Paul is not speaking of our "working" to obtain our own salvation since he makes it clear through all his teaching that is not the case. He isn't speaking of our being afraid of losing our salvation because God has not given us a spirit of fear. We see this same "fear and trembling", which means respect in the following verse.
Titus would not be pleased about instilling "fear and trembling" in the believers.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Your snideness aside....... Paul was not speaking of his eternal salvation. We don't "work out" our eternal salvation...that is a gift of God when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Fear and trembling means with respect and reverance to God.
Paul is here speaking of the need for the believer to continue in the Word because he won't be there with them. Not every time you read the word "salvation" in the Bible is it talking about eternal salvation. In this case it speaks of a productive walk of obedience to God which brings forth fruit.
If you take the verse in context, you will notice what comes next..."IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU...."
Phil.2:12-13 - "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We can know Paul is not speaking of our "working" to obtain our own salvation since he makes it clear through all his teaching that is not the case. He isn't speaking of our being afraid of losing our salvation because God has not given us a spirit of fear. We see this same "fear and trembling", which means respect in the following verse.
Titus would not be pleased about instilling "fear and trembling" in the believers.
2 Corinthians 7:14-16 said:
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
They are not the same words, yet you stand by them. The words "in prayer" was used as an example...not a part of the definition. To hold a grudge is totally different than to sigh or murmer in discontent. You're certainly free to make whatever leap you want, but anyone who has a concordance can read it for themselves.
They are not the same words, yet you stand by them. The words "in prayer" was used as an example...not a part of the definition. To hold a grudge is totally different than to sigh or murmer in discontent. You're certainly free to make whatever leap you want, but anyone who has a concordance can read it for themselves.
Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination
Being part of the "community" does not mean one is born again of God.
The Holy Spirit is not a principle and neither is satan. God's Spirit is not a guiding principle, it is the Spirit of Christ that abides in those who come by faith in Jesus Christ. Just because demons are removed from a demon possessed person, does not by any stretch mean the Holy Spirit moves into him. Having a demon removed does not mean a person believes unto salvation.
No, it most certainly does not say they escaped sin. It says they escaped the pollutions of the world. I suppose if a monk moves into a monestary, that means he's a born again child of God? That's not the way it works, Joe. Where we abide is not what counts, it's whether Jesus abides in us. We are in the world, but not of the world. To escape the pollutions of the world means we aren't worshipping idols or consorting with evil men, but have joined the church "community". But that does not mean we are saved...nor does it mean we've escaped sin...nor does it mean we've been given a new nature. A dog returning to it's vomit means it's still is a dog...no new nature.
Is there any possibilty you could try to control your rude comments? It's totally unnecessary, and.... heads up.... I've been charged with "bullying" for far far far less than that.
Being part of the "community" does not mean one is born again of God.
francisdesales said:
The Holy Spirit is not a principle and neither is satan. God's Spirit is not a guiding principle, it is the Spirit of Christ that abides in those who come by faith in Jesus Christ. Just because demons are removed from a demon possessed person, does not by any stretch mean the Holy Spirit moves into him. Having a demon removed does not mean a person believes unto salvation.
francisdesales said:
No, it most certainly does not say they escaped sin. It says they escaped the pollutions of the world. I suppose if a monk moves into a monestary, that means he's a born again child of God? That's not the way it works, Joe. Where we abide is not what counts, it's whether Jesus abides in us. We are in the world, but not of the world. To escape the pollutions of the world means we aren't worshipping idols or consorting with evil men, but have joined the church "community". But that does not mean we are saved...nor does it mean we've escaped sin...nor does it mean we've been given a new nature. A dog returning to it's vomit means it's still is a dog...no new nature.
Is there any possibilty you could try to control your rude comments? It's totally unnecessary, and.... heads up.... I've been charged with "bullying" for far far far less than that.