Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination ?

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Actually the work of God is often mistaken for a work of the enemy. Imagine being told to sacrifice your only son??? Would we not see this as evil? So we must be careful how we read the "bad" verses. While we seek to interpret the bible...it is actually interpreting us!

You've said no different than my observations, which same the Word presents that it is:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Any honest reflection will reveal both good and evil therein.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

It is easy to make a case from the one side of the testimony of the bible. But we must look at the WHOLE counsel of God...

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

G2632
κατακρίνω
katakrinō
kat-ak-ree'-no
From G2596 and G2919; to judge against, that is, sentence: - condemn, damn.


Here we have a warning that a brother could still be condemned! This must be put into the balance with..."there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...

The Greek word for "grudge" there is stenazo, which means to "groan or sigh". That should clearly show you this "condemned" is speaking of judging, and is not speaking of eternal condemnation. Rather it speaks to our not resting in the calamities that come upon us....James refers immediately to the patience of Job. All believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and any such "stubble" will be judged, but we ourselves are saved.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

All believers do err from the truth on occasion, and simply having an error explained can turn one about, which is the meaning of "convert" as used in this case. We see the same usage here in Luke.

1And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

James is talking about the body ministry, how we're to point out to our fellow believers when they err in their understanding of the Truth. Putting them back on the right track. Of course it isn't the one who turns someone back from error who saves a soul, so James isn't even intimating that. He is encouraging members of the body to support one another.

The truth is, as in Peter's case, Jesus prays for us and intercedes that our faith may not fail and we will strengthen our brethern. Hebrews 7:25 - "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

We need never doubt, for HE IS ABLE even when we are not.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

To smaller:

Have you recently grudged against a brother (by esteeming him a wolf) for upholding the precarious nature of our faithfulness towards Christ?

Not at all.

Post #71 speaks differently. This is not the first time you have mentioned this grudge you continue to hold against brothers in Christ... Because one Catholic makes a foolish comment which is not in line with what the Church teaches, the grudge continues... Too bad you couldn't explain things better at the time, but we must not blame an entire organization for the shortcomings of individuals.

If your claim is that in your subjective mind and heart that you are fit to deem another believer eternally burned alive forever, I would submit the right to see opposite.

Adullum is not saying that HIS subjective mind deems it fit that another believer be eternally burned forever. He is merely stating what Sacred Writ says. The Lord will judge WHO will be condemned. Not us. He will determine whether one is a "believer" or not. Not us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

All believers do err from the truth on occasion, and simply having an error explained can turn one about, which is the meaning of "convert" as used in this case.

And some believers err so badly as to return to the life of sin - making them worse off then BEFORE being saved. Clearly, they are no longer saved, to be "worse off"...

THINK ABOUT IT! WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE!!!

The OSAS crowd has no response to 2 Peter 2:20-21. It is as simple as that.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

The Greek word for "grudge" there is stenazo, which means to "groan or sigh". That should clearly show you this "condemned" is speaking of judging, and is not speaking of eternal condemnation.

More text twisting so as to remove the meaning of Sacred Writ.

Did Jesus say something so different in Matthew's Gospel:

You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. Matt 5:21-24

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

It is perfectly clear that James is refering to Jesus' saying. Jesus is making a "lesser to greater" argument - HIS Law has a higher requirement than the Mosaic Law.

The key word here is not "grudge", but BE CONDEMNED. And this condemnation is serious, for "the judge standeth before the door". Clearly, the "Judge" is Jesus Christ, Who has made it clear that our actions with our brother can place us in danger of hell-fire.

Regards

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

To smaller:
Post #71 speaks differently. This is not the first time you have mentioned this grudge you continue to hold against brothers in Christ... Because one Catholic makes a foolish comment which is not in line with what the Church teaches, the grudge continues... Too bad you couldn't explain things better at the time, but we must not blame an entire organization for the shortcomings of individuals.

In case you haven't looked around you the majority of 'believers' believe as that man's statement, denom. flag immaterial. And as for your 'grudge' observation, not true at all. I believe every poster in this thread is saved. Can't measure any better, sorry. But I also believe that is not 'all' of what every believer is. We all ALSO have sin and same is and remains of the devil, who will not be saved.

Adullum is not saying that HIS subjective mind deems it fit that another believer be eternally burned forever. He is merely stating what Sacred Writ says. The Lord will judge WHO will be condemned. Not us. He will determine whether one is a "believer" or not. Not us.

Regards

What 'sacred writ' says and what is reflected from the readers hearts is kind of the point. I prefer to stay upon facts if you'd care to address same.

So if you'd like to address one of those within your denom. construct you understand they officially provide zero assurance of salvation other than to those with an official saint tag. If the 99%ers in the U.S. are a reflection of official favortism, I'm certain the numbers within the religious organization in question is even slimmer i.e. far less than 1% receive that official favoritism.

Thanks.

s

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

In case you haven't looked around you the majority of 'believers' believe as that man's statement, denom. flag immaterial.

I'm only speaking about what the Scriptures state. If this happens to be other "denom. flag material", so be it...

And as for your 'grudge' observation, not true at all. I believe every poster in this thread is saved.

That was not the issue. The "grudge" observation refers to your treatment of others, not on whether they are saved/unsaved...

We all ALSO have sin and same is and remains of the devil, who will not be saved.
What 'sacred writ' says and what is reflected from the readers hearts is kind of the point. I prefer to stay upon facts if you'd care to address same.

The facts are simple. People can fall away and become "unsaved"... A situation "worse off than before". I'm sure you could do the math.

If the 99%ers in the U.S. are a reflection of official favortism, I'm certain the numbers within the religious organization in question is even slimmer i.e. far less than 1% receive that official favoritism.

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

I'm only speaking about what the Scriptures state. If this happens to be other "denom. flag material", so be it...

I will maintain that what scriptures state and what is factually reflected in the readers varies down to the man, and that fact is a reality.

That was not the issue. The "grudge" observation refers to your treatment of others, not on whether they are saved/unsaved...

I've already provided my position on this. You are welcome to engage that, not what you may falsely perceive as such. I believe it entirely possible to love people and to resist evil in same simultaneously, even within myself, if this dissection makes it any easier for you. I believe both good and evil exist in all people simultaneously regardless. And again I believe this to be a reality born out in fact of both scripture and life.

The facts are simple. People can fall away and become "unsaved"... A situation "worse off than before". I'm sure you could do the math.

Fact is that no such examples of any specific believer losing their salvation exists in the text. So that is what I see for a fact and you are certainly welcome to infer otherwise. I would infer that is your personal reflection i.e. what is in you being reflected more than a reality of scriptural example.

We all have to live with our own reflections. Reflect what you are.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

And some believers err so badly as to return to the life of sin - making them worse off then BEFORE being saved. Clearly, they are no longer saved, to be "worse off"...

THINK ABOUT IT! WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE!!!

The OSAS crowd has no response to 2 Peter 2:20-21. It is as simple as that.

Regards

Speaking from the OSAS position, the alternative IS exactly the condition Peter is referencing.

Why?

Because such holders almost invariably heap that fate upon other believers while excusing the 'evil' within themselves based on their doctrinal sets.

That to me is a far far worse position. It would have been better for such not to have known to begin with.

Just in how ya reflect upon those scriptures, eh?

s

 

[jesus4life]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

MATTHEW 5:8
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.


LOL!! AMEN!! GOD lives and dwells in heaven, can go where HE please, and judges our hearts here. If our hearts are pure ( this has nothing to do with our minds and feelings, and that heart will slowly change our actions), then we will experience heaven on earth.

Walking in the spirit like JESUS and some of the characteristics of the disciples, prophets, followers, and messengers. That is Heaven starts here in the heart. Where ever there is faith in GOD, there is the glimpse of heaven to come that HE gives all believers. Believers will know what I mean when they are on a great prayer day at ( anywhere), in a great service in church, on a great ministering day with many believers, sees non-believers turn to CHRIST, when they are helping people from their heart and not from their ego, and so many more examples of when HE allows us to see a glimpse of heaven here. Full heaven of course will be later, but it starts in our hearts here.

jesus4life

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Speaking from the OSAS position, the alternative IS exactly the condition Peter is referencing.

Why?

Because such holders almost invariably heap that fate upon other believers while excusing the 'evil' within themselves based on their doctrinal sets.

You seem to forget or deny that 2 Peter 2 is the Word of God, not some opinions of believers that cast out those they don't think make the cut... It says what it says, and it is not about opinions of believers on the status of other believers.

Nothing about Lutherans frying like weiners or any other such stupid comments. It clearly states that people who return to their ways of sins WILL BE WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE. Thus, they return to an unsaved position, and even worse, since they won't be able to claim "ignorance" or "I didn't know better"...

My point has nothing to do with the opinions of how many Lutherans, according to me, are frying in hell. It is about stating what Sacred Writ says - that some WILL return to the vomit of their past lives - and will become "worse off than before".

Regards

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

You seem to forget or deny that 2 Peter 2 is the Word of God, not some opinions of believers that cast out those they don't think make the cut... It says what it says, and it is not about opinions of believers on the status of other believers.

Nothing about Lutherans frying like weiners or any other such stupid comments.

And you also know that it is allowed to hold those types of positions, even if they cannot be specifically confirmed or applied. No sense fibbing about it.

It clearly states that people who return to their ways of sins WILL BE WORSE OFF THAN BEFORE. Thus, they return to an unsaved position, and even worse, since they won't be able to claim "ignorance" or "I didn't know better"...

As stated prior, if your doctrine causes you internally to believe Lutherans are going to fry like weiners rather than love your neighbors as yourself, my observation is that such are far far far worse off, even while thinking they are not and immune from that which they vaunt on other believers. So there ya go. Your version of worse off and mine obviously again vary depending on our subjective reflections. I don't want your reflection quite frankly because I don't think it's true.

My point has nothing to do with the opinions of how many Lutherans, according to me, are frying in hell. It is about stating what Sacred Writ says - that some WILL return to the vomit of their past lives - and will become "worse off than before".

Regards

In your opinion that may very well included total agreement with every jot and tittle of your particular sect of faith or be branded as a heretic.

I reject such notions as quite short of the mark. I've said before that I agree with the church fathers deliberations on the Trinity but when it comes to one group condemning another over such variances as 'and of the Son' I may have to part company with both. The desire to be right is over ruled by a greater law, that of Love to neighbors.

Most sects forgot that part along the way in favor of having right doctrine and failing to put that one first. Again, imho.

enjoy!

s

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

I believe it entirely possible to love people and to resist evil in same simultaneously, even within myself, if this dissection makes it any easier for you.

Why yes, that would be easier, if that was your true belief...

The manner of your grudge on the frying Lutherans, notwithstanding, says otherwise. You continue to hold a grudge - apparently against the entire one billion Catholics on the face of the earth...

Fact is that no such examples of any specific believer losing their salvation exists in the text.

That is debatable. It is also inconsequential, since there are very few specific believers who are absolutely guarnateed salvation to eternal life, either... EVERYTIME you see "persevere", it presumes that no one is indeed guaranteed anything - unless they REMAIN in Christ.

So that is what I see for a fact and you are certainly welcome to infer otherwise.

That is your opinion, smaller. It is wrong.

WHY would the Bible make such a statement about a living Christian, since at ANY point, up to the time of death, a person can repent? NO ONE knows the true conversion intent but God Himself. Thus, WHY would Paul make such a statement about a PARTICULAR person before their deaths? The "best" he could possibly say is that someone was "handed over to Satan", with the hope of a future repentance. And certainly, Paul wouldn't make a statement about a dead person, since HE doesn't know the inner heart of a person. The best we can do is speculate, and such things are personal opinions, not doctrinal certainties that the Bible would bother to dwell on.

Given that it is frightfully clear that a person CAN fall away and return to an unsaved position, your "position" is moot. Just because Paul never points to a specific person does not discount what he and Peter wrote...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. NOT stating something is proof of nothing...

Regards

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Why yes, that would be easier, if that was your true belief...

The manner of your grudge on the frying Lutherans, notwithstanding, says otherwise. You continue to hold a grudge - apparently against the entire one billion Catholics on the face of the earth...

I don't think a single one of them will fry alive forever. I doubt you can make that statement can you?

lol on the grudge.

That is debatable. It is also inconsequential, since there are very few specific believers who are absolutely guarnateed salvation to eternal life, either...

The statement of fact will stand the test of scriptural examination. There is exactly zero evidence of any believer said to be going to fry alive forever.

For lack of such examples, I submit that to find same remains a reflection of those seeking same rather than scriptural evidence.

I also do not doubt the bait is set in scriptures to reveal such things in such seekers.

EVERYTIME you see "persevere", it presumes that no one is indeed guaranteed anything - unless they REMAIN in Christ.

Again, your opinion.

That is your opinion, smaller. It is wrong.

Prove it. Just show me one example in scripture of your supposedly solid conclusion of believers frying alive forever. Seems relatively simple to me to be able to locate if it's there, but of course it's not.

I have no problem with a benefit of the doubt understanding to other believers.

WHY would the Bible make such a statement about a living Christian, since at ANY point, up to the time of death, a person can repent? NO ONE knows the true conversion intent but God Himself.

That's exactly correct. For all you know everyone who has ever died could have had a deathbed conversion or godly repenting sorrow. Why not believe the best for same? You only presume that some or even the majority do not, but that does not mean you are right. You could just as well be totally off the mark.

Fact is, you have no clue either way, but from your own heart comes the reflection that some or many do not.

If you try to force me to admit that X amount of believers are going to factually be burning alive forever, I would simply put forth that your own sect has not even gone there and DO in fact make room for Gods Overwhelming Grace. But they also allow people like you to believe what they want to.

So you can make whatever claims you want. I'm as familiar as I want to be with theological wishy washy political statements.

Thus, WHY would Paul make such a statement about a PARTICULAR person before their deaths? The "best" he could possibly say is that someone was "handed over to Satan", with the hope of a future repentance. And certainly, Paul wouldn't make a statement about a dead person, since HE doesn't know the inner heart of a person.

You appear to know for a fact though don't you? Why don't you just admit that you don't know like you say Paul did? You'd be far better off than jumping on the subjective presumption train at the expense of someone else imho. But hey, if it makes you feel better that other believers will factually fry or it helps keep the evil in your own heart in check, so be it.

The best we can do is speculate,

Well dear FD, there is a difference between fact and speculation is there not. Thank you for at least admitting IT'S SPECULATION.

So why are you pressing speculation as fact?

I have no interest in speculative faith in any case. Sorry.

I've never said that a person can not fall victim to the devil in this present life. We ALL have.

That is not ground enough for me whatsoever to start tossing fallen believers into hell on speculative theories. Sorry. I'd rather love them anyway and expect that measure for myself.

enjoy!

s

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

joe dont confuse the lutherans with the calvinists here. lutherans dont buy into osas nor persevarance of the saints

and i am neither. i am arminist in thinking

 

[Saltwater]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Hello Smaller,

With regards to your comment “Fact is that no such examples of any specific believer losing their salvation exists in the text.â€

Demas is an example of a christian who lost his salvation.

Demas was a fellow co-worker with Paul (Col4:14 & Phi24) who was very particular about whom he worked in sharing the gospel (Acts15:37-41).

However by 2Tim4:10 Demas has deserted Paul

10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

James 4:4 & 1Jhn2:15 tell us about those who love the world & want to make themselves a friend of the world & how it affects their relationship with God.

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

So by loving the world Demas did not have the love of God in Him & made himself an enemy of God & enemies of God do not end up in heaven for eternity!!

There are more examples Smaller of named Christians who lost their salvation.
For example –
Hymenaues & Philetus 2Tim2:17-18
Simon – Acts8:9-25 noting v13!!!!


There are also quite a few examples of un named christians who depart from the faith & lose their salvation + examples from Jesus parables eg. Luke 15:24 & 32 noting the prodigal was dead & is alive AGAIN - obviously not physically dead, it must mean spiritually dead, alive again means he was previously right with God.


also see the parable of the sower Luke 8:13 believe for awhile & then depart during a time of testing = saved for awhile & then lose their salvation during a time of testing.

I hope the above prompts you to take a new look at the scriptures as those who believe in OSAS are unable to read/interpret many sections of the Bible according to the laws of grammar.


​

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

joe dont confuse the lutherans with the calvinists here. lutherans dont buy into osas nor persevarance of the saints

and i am neither. i am arminist in thinking

Jason,

I am not making a theological judgment or comment on Lutherans viz a viz any other Christian organization. It is made in context to smaller's comment on his Grandchildren being upset by what a Catholic said about Lutherans frying in hell - a stupid comment, as i have said.

Regards

 

[smaller]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

Hello Smaller,

With regards to your comment “Fact is that no such examples of any specific believer losing their salvation exists in the text.”

Demas is an example of a christian who lost his salvation.

Demas was a fellow co-worker with Paul (Col4:14 & Phi24) who was very particular about whom he worked in sharing the gospel (Acts15:37-41).

However by 2Tim4:10 Demas has deserted Paul

10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

James 4:4 & 1Jhn2:15 tell us about those who love the world & want to make themselves a friend of the world & how it affects their relationship with God.

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

So by loving the world Demas did not have the love of God in Him & made himself an enemy of God & enemies of God do not end up in heaven for eternity!!

There are more examples Smaller of named Christians who lost their salvation.
For example –
Hymenaues & Philetus 2Tim2:17-18
Simon – Acts8:9-25 noting v13!!!!


There are also quite a few examples of un named christians who depart from the faith & lose their salvation + examples from Jesus parables eg. Luke 15:24 & 32 noting the prodigal was dead & is alive AGAIN - obviously not physically dead, it must mean spiritually dead, alive again means he was previously right with God.


also see the parable of the sower Luke 8:13 believe for awhile & then depart during a time of testing = saved for awhile & then lose their salvation during a time of testing.

I hope the above prompts you to take a new look at the scriptures as those who believe in OSAS are unable to read/interpret many sections of the Bible according to the laws of grammar.

​

None of those are shown to be assuredly headed to the Lake of Fire. Sorry.

If you think you see that, please feel free to show same. I'd submit you only think it's there and that is a reflection that exists 'only' from within you and not as a stated fact.

If you feel the need for personal threat to keep yourself saved, that is certainly your prerogative. But the fact remains it's not a fact shown in text.

As it pertains to fact, it remains a fact that no believer is shown in the text to have been forsaken by Jesus and headed assuredly into the Lake of Fire. As such, it remains a concoction imho. Were it shown otherwise I'd certainly have to agree with fact.

Those stated certainly fell to some extent in the snare of Satan's will in their present life. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem making the claim that Jesus forsook them and then is forced to burn them alive in fire forever as that is shown NOWHERE in the text, period.

enjoy!

s

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Are you confident that, what you believe will guarantee your eternal destination

ah ok.

i wasnt sure. yes bad blood. sadly when i ever ask the jews on all things jewish i must be cautious as theres this shutdown.

im leary to ask one my family on the bar and bat mitzvah they went through. i am going to teach the kids on the feasts if the lord wills and want to get into that as well. it has a deep meaning to it and death to the jew is a mitzvah. why we christians dont see it that way is beyond me.

i am uncertain if i will get an answer. i dont hide what i am to them on fb or in person.