Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

This thread came about as a result of a post I made in another thread:

"The only way one can make his salvation something earned/something of debt and not of grace is by keeping God's law sinlessly perfect. But Abraham and David both sinned so they could not earn salvation by works they needed grace and received grace by obedient faith and not works of merit.

Since the only way to gain salvation by debt and not of grace is by perfect sinlessness.....

This means any argument accusing those who do sin but obey as trying to earning salvation are bad, false arguments for obedient works do not, cannot ever earn salvation.


Would you accuse Abraham of trying to earn salvation by his obedient faith?"

 

[Eventide]

Once again a hearty Amen E.

I always enjoy your commentary.

 

[Eventide]

Obedient FAITH...

And the word of God flat out tells us this in plain english..

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[John 8:32]

100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfect obedience cannot earn salvation. Salvation is the (NOT) free gift of God.

Why do I say it is not free? It cost Jesus Christ His life to make it available to us. While it is given to us free, it has the ultimate price tag attached. The price was paid by Someone else.

 

[John 8:32]

This thread came about as a result of a post I made in another thread:

"The only way one can make his salvation something earned/something of debt and not of grace is by keeping God's law sinlessly perfect. But Abraham and David both sinned so they could not earn salvation by works they needed grace and received grace by obedient faith and not works of merit.

Since the only way to gain salvation by debt and not of grace is by perfect sinlessness.....

This means any argument accusing those who do sin but obey as trying to earning salvation are bad, false arguments for obedient works do not, cannot ever earn salvation.


Would you accuse Abraham of trying to earn salvation by his obedient faith?"

We agree on much, but on this I must respectfully disagree. Nowhere does the Bible teach that perfect obedience will give life...

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The promises of the OC were not those of eternal life. The NC gives life.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We agree on much, but on this I must respectfully disagree. Nowhere does the Bible teach that perfect obedience will give life...

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The promises of the OC were not those of eternal life. The NC gives life.

Hi,


I get it from Rom 4:5 "Now to him that worketh IS THE REWARD not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

The one who worketh here is more than just an obedient person, he is perfectly sinless in keeping God's law whereas God would owe him salvation/reward, salvation would be of debt because a perfectly sinless person would not be in need of grace.

So the only way salvation could be 'earned' or 'owed' to a person is if that person could sinlessly keep God's law.

So one who is obedient but sins would be in need of grace for he sinned therefore his obedience does not, cannot ever earn salvation for it is not perfect.


So this led to the question: would you accuse Abraham of trying to earn salvation by his obedient faith?

Abraham was one who sinned so he could not earn salvation by keeping the law perfectly but his sin put him in need of grace. But he had an obedient faith that was reckoned as righteous. So is one willing to argue he earned his righteousness by his obedient faith? If not, then how can one argue one is earning his salvation by obeying in believing, repenting, confessing witht he mouth and being baptized when Abraham did not earn his salvation by obedience?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

Yes and it did, here is how Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If one does not become saved off that one act of obedience, then all other obedience is but Idolatry !

 

[John 8:32]

Hi,


I get it from Rom 4:5 "Now to him that worketh IS THE REWARD not reckoned of grace, but of debt."

The one who worketh here is more than just an obedient person, he is perfectly sinless in keeping God's law whereas God would owe him salvation/reward, salvation would be of debt because a perfectly sinless person would not be in need of grace.

So the only way salvation could be 'earned' or 'owed' to a person is if that person could sinlessly keep God's law.

So one who is obedient but sins would be in need of grace for he sinned therefore his obedience does not, cannot ever earn salvation for it is not perfect.


So this led to the question: would you accuse Abraham of trying to earn salvation by his obedient faith?

Abraham was one who sinned so he could not earn salvation by keeping the law perfectly but his sin put him in need of grace. But he had an obedient faith that was reckoned as righteous. So is one willing to argue he earned his righteousness by his obedient faith? If not, then how can one argue one is earning his salvation by obeying in believing, repenting, confessing witht he mouth and being baptized when Abraham did not earn his salvation by obedience?

My understanding is that savation is a gift. Our reward is based on our works. Hence the 10, 5 and 2 cities scenario.

But do not misunderstand, obedience does not earn salvation, but disobedience (Law breaking, called iniquity or lawlessness in scripture) can disqualify one from salvation...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I do not believe that the lawless (unrepentant commandment breakers) will receive salvation. I believe they will find out first hand what it means to be ashes under the soles of the righteous (Psa 119:172) feet...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[John 8:32]

Now after the last post concerning works and obedience, here is my thought on Abraham...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham obeyed God's law by faith.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes and it did, here is how Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If one does not become saved off that one act of obedience, then all other obedience is but Idolatry !

So everyone earned savlation by Christ's one obedient act?

 

[John 8:32]

So everyone earned savlation by Christ's one obedient act?

Same old song, it was all done for us at the cross. We do not have to do anything. I can live anyway I want to and still be saved. Not what God says...

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Overcomes what? Sin. What is sin? The transgression of the law.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[John 8:32]

Yes and it did, here is how Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If one does not become saved off that one act of obedience, then all other obedience is but Idolatry !

Please show me a scripture where God says obedience is idolatry.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My understanding is that savation is a gift. Our reward is based on our works. Hence the 10, 5 and 2 cities scenario.

But do not misunderstand, obedience does not earn salvation, but disobedience (Law breaking, called iniquity or lawlessness in scripture) can disqualify one from salvation...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I do not believe that the lawless (unrepentant commandment breakers) will receive salvation. I believe they will find out first hand what it means to be ashes under the soles of the righteous (Psa 119:172) feet...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

I agree that salvation is a gift.

But in Rom 4:4,5 Paul was making a point in contrasting works of merit that one does to try and earn salvation in verse 4 to an obedient faith of verse 5.

So in verse 4, to what person would the reward be of debt and not of grace?

 

[John 8:32]

I agree that salvation is a gift.

But in Rom 4:4,5 Paul was making a point in contrasting works of merit that one does to try and earn salvation in verse 4 to an obedient faith of verse 5.

So in verse 4, to what person would the reward be of debt and not of grace?

I have always understood that as a broader statement in that Paul was trying to confute those who were preaching that salvation was by the Law and that one must be physically circumcised and do all of the law of Moses to be saved. Making faith in Christ of none effect. Just the way I have seen it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have always understood that as a broader statement in that Paul was trying to confute those who were preaching that salvation was by the Law and that one must be physically circumcised and do all of the law of Moses to be saved. Making faith in Christ of none effect. Just the way I have seen it.

Yes, there were Judiazing teachers that taught one could not be saved unless he was circumcised cf Acts 15:1 . Paul refuted them in Rom 4 by showing how Abraham was justified while in UNcircumcison and not in circumcision.

But going back to the OT law and keeping circumcsion would not justify for one had to keep ALL the law perfectly. So in verse 4 Paul describes this "worker" who thinks he can keep the law perfectly and by doing so his reward would be of debt and not grace. It would be of debt and not grace for perfect sinlessness does not need grace. So Paul contrasts this "worker" in verse 4 who is working to earn his salvation to the person in verse 5 who "worketh not, but believeth". In this verse "worketh not" excludes works of merit done by the worker of verse 4. The phrase "but believeth" includes an obedient belief. So in verse 5 Paul is describing one who does not work to earn his salvation but who has an obedient belief in God.


So in verse 4 the person who's reward is of debt and not of grace would describe one who works to keep God's law perfectly. Which means the only way you could ever earn salvation was if you were perfectly sinless, but you and no one else is. You sin and therefore are in need of grace. So you obediently believe in God who can justify a sinner as yourself. So one cannot argue that you are trying to earn salvation by your obedience for the only way you could earn salvation is if you're perfectly sinless and never violated God's law.

Hopefuly this will help you understand what I am saying.

 

[heymikey80]

Yet Paul excluded works from drawing out grace: "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Rom 11:5-6

The basic problem is that work-for-wages, even supererogation of works, isn't compatible with grace. Works cannot be done in order to accomplish grace.

 

[Eventide]

And that's why it is NOT based upon works but rather God's grace through His beloved Son.

The gospel of God's Son is unto OBEDIENCE to all NATIONS... Romans 1..

And that's who God gives His Spirit to.. those who are obedient to the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Webb]

One can do NOTHING to earn salvation. Such is an impossibility. Hebrews 5:8,9 reads:"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;".

 

[Eventide]

One can do NOTHING to earn salvation. Such is an impossibility.

Absolutely true imo.. and being obedient to the calling of God through the gospel of His beloved Son has nothing at all to do with earning salvation.

That's the basis of this thread... and imo it's right on the mark.

 

[heymikey80]

Absolutely true imo.. and being obedient to the calling of God through the gospel of His beloved Son has nothing at all to do with earning salvation.

That's the basis of this thread... and imo it's right on the mark.

It's just got a slight problem. "Obedience" is work in English, but the word translated "obey" is not specifically referring to work. In fact the word translated "obey" is specified by Paul to mean the heart's response to God's command; not particularly any work that is actually performed.

Once again, the issue is heart-response, not the hand's action. Works, even obedient works, don't save.

The way these texts are constructed, too, it's the heart of faith that brings justification. Someone relying on God will hear His commands and respond submissively in his heart to them. But the action that results is not the point; rather it's the reliance on God that's the point.

Try translating "rely" into NT Greek, and then back again, and you'll see the point of what I'm saying.