The church is Israel. Jesus didn't come to destroy Israel, but to restore it. God, in 70AD, judged and destroyed Judea.
You make no sense. If God can't judge in 70AD because Jesus is the lamb, how does God judge on Judgment Day?
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Who nailed Him ?
- Thread starter twinc
- Start date
The church is Israel. Jesus didn't come to destroy Israel, but to restore it. God, in 70AD, judged and destroyed Judea.
You make no sense. If God can't judge in 70AD because Jesus is the lamb, how does God judge on Judgment Day?
smaller
Member
Did Jesus request His executioners to ask for forgiveness? Or was it given to them?
The only reference we have to look at in any of the gospels is when Jesus said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." This does not mean God actually forgave them, just that Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.
Of course we have to consider who actually sinned in this situation. It is arguable that the soldiers did not, that they were just following orders, but then again everyone has a choice.
The real question is: did anyone involved in Jesus' crucifixion repent and ask for forgiveness?
smaller
Member
Oh, really? You mean God would not HONOR Jesus' Prayer? Is that what you are saying?
s
Not at all. Jesus is merely making a request. God will answer prayer according to His will, and will not be in contradiction to his nature.
smaller
Member
So, Jesus requesting such may have been totally meaningless then? His request was potentially invalid?
Would you say the nature of Jesus and God were somehow technically divided on this matter? One asked, the other may not give?
Look at the scene in the garden at Gethsemane. Jesus prayed for God the Father to "take this cup" from him, but ultimately prayed that God's will be done. What are your thoughts there?
smaller
Member
I considered this matter long ago.
It seems reasonable to me that God was in Christ and that there are no differences between them. It is also reasonable to me to see that forgiveness is in fact a heavenly matter that is 'owned' by God. We are 'distributed' that, partake in that, share that as we have been 'freely' given same by our Maker.
Forgiveness is a heavenly gift that is put in us, in our hearts, as Jesus showed was in Him.
His forgiveness IS effective. It is not a matter of us being Pavlovian dogs, going to Him to push the forgiveness button formulas in order to receive 'our due.'
Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
Psalm 85:2
Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin.
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses
Past tense, forgiven. Believers are reconciled to a FACT that already was in place.
The understanding of this is a matter and a gift that is in us to also dispense and live in freely, without any asking from another in order to receive same from us, and certainly not expecting any reward for walking in it.
Moses typed this same matter here. The congregants did NOT have to 'ask for it.' Their intercessor obtained it at the cost of his own life:
Exodus 32:32
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
That is what Jesus did for YOU. You know that.
It is a gift that we have a share in that was 'given' freely to us. We did not 'earn' it and neither did the Centurians who drove those nails. It was bought and paid for by God Himself.
s
Of course forgiveness is freely given, and not something we have to earn, however, it is something that is given based on having a repentant heart. You may think this a contradiction, but it is not. How can forgiveness mean anything if the person receiving it is not repentant of the very sin for which they are being forgiven?
smaller
Member
Very true. As believers we are reconciled to what has already taken place in Christ. We have understanding of it.
Repentance is no different. That is also a granting into our hearts. It is not something we 'conjure' up on our own.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
None of us stumble into repentance. We are led there to partake in The Divine.
s
Of course it is God, via the Holy Spirit, that leads us to repentance, however, it is still our choice to do so, which is why forgiveness is only given upon willingly repenting once God has led us to that spot.
Jesus was in total obedience to the Father, and without sin. In fact he only said the things that the Father gave Him to say. Jn 5:26, 28, 38.
Romans 11:25-29 says: For id not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own opinion that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: the Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Verses 12 -36 expand on this
We, are the Gentiles in this case unless we are of Jewish heritage. After the fullness of the Gentiles have been saved, then the Jews will receive their full comprehension of the Gospel. There is nothing to suggest that we Gentiles are Israel. While I admire Augustine, this was his idea and I have never seen it in the Bible.
It was the sins of the world that nailed Jesus on the cross. My sins. He died for me. 1 Jn 2:2 It is not so important how He got there as what He did. Jesus loved Jeruselem. He wept over her and said, Jeruselem, Jeruselem, how I would have gathered you as a hen does her chicks, but you would not. God is not hard hearted, Even His chastening is done out of love. God loves us gentiles and He loves Israel, the Jewish nation which was promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. And so He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her. And we are to pray for the peace of Jeruselem.
Romans 11:25-29 says: For id not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own opinion that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: the Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Verses 12 -36 expand on this
We, are the Gentiles in this case unless we are of Jewish heritage. After the fullness of the Gentiles have been saved, then the Jews will receive their full comprehension of the Gospel. There is nothing to suggest that we Gentiles are Israel. While I admire Augustine, this was his idea and I have never seen it in the Bible.
It was the sins of the world that nailed Jesus on the cross. My sins. He died for me. 1 Jn 2:2 It is not so important how He got there as what He did. Jesus loved Jeruselem. He wept over her and said, Jeruselem, Jeruselem, how I would have gathered you as a hen does her chicks, but you would not. God is not hard hearted, Even His chastening is done out of love. God loves us gentiles and He loves Israel, the Jewish nation which was promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. And so He will bless those who bless her, and curse those who curse her. And we are to pray for the peace of Jeruselem.
smaller
Member
Gods forgiveness exist as quite a separate matter than your choice, nor does your choice eliminate any matter of God.
s
Are you saying there is no such thing as free will?
okay - to repent it is essential to know or realise that one has offended - this the Roman soldiers would not have known or have been guilty of - forgiveness for a non guilty plea is a God given right "for they know not what they do" - some Jews[the rabble - lynch mob] stirred up by a brood of vipers sought his death but the Jews in general ran before Him with hosannas and palms and would have Him for their King - the evidence is clear for all to see but is a stumbling block and unacceptable to very,very many - The prayer Jesus prayed has not only been answered but has been blessed - the Romans have been forgiven and also blessed for Rome has been and still is the bastion of Christianity and Christ - twinc
smaller
Member
No mans choice makes Gods Word, Work and Ways valid or invalid, period.
Your 'choice' eliminated nothing of God, it did not add to Him nor take away from Him.
We receive 'understanding' and 'eye opening' from Him to perceive and to partake.
If you believe, you were given the Spirit of Truth in order to do so.
s
I guess that is one way to not answer the question.
smaller
Member
Did you take the Holy Ghost from God by your choice, or was it given to you?
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
It is the Holy Spirit that quickens us to understand what it means to be saved, and how salvation is obtained, but it is still our decision to accept it.