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Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?
- Thread starter Butch5
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Butch5
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George, this has been addressed. The word places is "NOT" in the Greek texts, it was added by the translators. Heavenly is an adjective, it's being used as a substantive, is in the neuter gender and has the definite article. The neuter gender indicates things, not places. It should read 'made us to sit together in the heavenly things.'
Do you believe John was on the isle of Patmos on Sunday in approximately 90 AD or whenever, and was told as we read in Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" from that point in time. That in my opinion if that were the case would mean all events shown John after he was caught up to describe things which shall be hereafter started back in 90 AD on a Sunday. Anyhow I'm not agreeing with this and will withdraw from the thread. Thanks Butch.
So I ask again....Is Lazarus sitting in the lap of Abraham having a conversation with a man being tormented in Hell? I also ask you what was this place that you claim is a real place called before it was called Abraham's Bosom? You know there were people who lived and died long before Abraham...what was this actual place called then? Noah's Bosom? A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth George let us not make it more than what it is. The whole point of the parable George was that Jesus was comparing the Pharisees to the rich man and the poor Jews to Lazarus. Those who have it good in this life don't always make it to the Kingdom of Heaven. And those whom we think are pathetic and worthless in this life may just end up in the Kingdom of Heaven. This parable was not intended as a description of the afterlife.DO YOU?Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.
I am looking forward to that Kingdom of Heaven when Jesus returns and "wakes" me up if I have already fallen "asleep".
Sorry guys I've been preoccupied planning my upcoming vacation.
I'm sure this thread has taken it's own path by now, but I did want to comment on Grapplers verses. This probably has nothing to do with the OP, but the beatitudes, or supreme blessing is an interesting group of verse when asking the question who will go to heaven.
Mathew 5:3-12
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
A lot of folks read this and it appears that Jesus is describing several different types of people. You got the poor in spirit, the mournful, the meek, the ones ones who hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on, But what God is actually describing is not several types of people; but one type; A saved individual.
When I first meet Christ I was poor in spirit. My soul mourned for what I knew I was, a sinner. I became meek and humble and I hungered for righteousness. In my maturity in Christ I feel mercy and compassion towards others. I wish I could say I'm pure at heart, but that change has also been developing in me. Peacemaker? I don't know I have two kids does that count? I'd rather not be persecuted, but as my relationship grows in Christ people know about it, and I am often the butt of jokes in my office.
What Christ is describing in the beatitudes is a Christian. at the end He says, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
To be honest Heaven was the farthest thing from my mind when I meet Christ. Now I see it more as a place God would have me rather then a desire I long for. The promise is His to us rather than some goal I concern myself with, because I know I have no chance without Him.
G
Guest
Guest
[MENTION=22286]Danus[/MENTION] You missed the question completely. That's ok, but the question was when the Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth. Are they talking about us inheriting this old earth as we live our lives now or inherit the new earth after judgment day in the afterlife? Blessings.
If you believe Jesus is in heaven: note connect the dots
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise."
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for Ihave not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Your up
G
George Muller
Guest
Of course it was a real event. Comment deletedSo I ask again....Is Lazarus sitting in the lap of Abraham having a conversation with a man being tormented in Hell? I also ask you what was this place that you claim is a real place called before it was called Abraham's Bosom? You know there were people who lived and died long before Abraham...what was this actual place called then? Noah's Bosom? A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth George let us not make it more than what it is. The whole point of the parable George was that Jesus was comparing the Pharisees to the rich man and the poor Jews to Lazarus. Those who have it good in this life don't always make it to the Kingdom of Heaven. And those whom we think are pathetic and worthless in this life may just end up in the Kingdom of Heaven. This parable was not intended as a description of the afterlife.DO YOU?Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.
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G
George Muller
Guest
Well you just replaced "things" for "places" and tried to explain away the word; "heaven" which is not a adjective but a noun.
epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky
The word "together" was used three times in Eph 2:5-6. It is describing our union with Christ in being "quickened" (Eph 2:5), "raised" (this verse), and seated "in heavenly places" (this verse). None of these things are possible on our own. It is only through our union with Christ that any of this is attainable. Our victory in the Christian life is dependent on our dependency on Christ and not on ourselves. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to live for Christ. Instead, we need to recognize our weaknesses and let Him live through us.
"Made us sit" (this verse), "raised" (Eph 1:20 and this verse), and "quickened" (Eph 2:1 and 5) are all in the aorist tense. This indicates something that God has already accomplished in Christ, not something that is off in the future.
At this moment where are you sitting? I am sitting on earth, in a chair, in front of a keyboard. I must have missed the train.
Actually, I didn't miss it. Again, this is a case of posting half of the information, had you posted the very next verse...
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
it shows that this passage is looking forward to the next age. The age after the 6 day week that is terminated by Christ's return. It is a future event, unless you actually are in Heaven and have internet service there.
Now we have a REAL problem, Jesus didn't go there for three days and three nights after saying this. Either (1) the malefactor went to Heaven that day and was there to meet Jesus, or (2) Jesus was confused and unable to distinguish reality.
The first option casts in doubt the validity of scripture...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
So was Jesus the firstborn among many brethren or was the malefactor?
Second option, well this one casts in doubt the whole concept of salvation. You cannot trust anything He said if this is true.
The real answer to this is that there were no commas in the original. They were inserted much later, some punctuation was put in as late as the 1100's AD. for this verse to harmonize with the rest of scripture it needs to read as such...
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Christ was telling the malefactor today that when the resurrection comes he would be with Christ.
And this is actually three days and four nights after He was buried. (The resurrection was not on Sunday morning. It takes just a little, but not much, investigation to determine this one.)
Yep, He was going back to the Father just as He said. He opened the way for us to pray to the Father and have fellowship with Him. Doesn't say we go there, in fact, this is what He really said...
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
He is returning to receive us to Himself.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
He receives us to Himself when He returns...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
We are made alive at the resurrection of the dead. When does that occur?
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Here is an interesting excerpt I have from the study of "Matthew - Biography of the King" by M. Bodie.
"In (Matthew) chapters five to seven, we have the constitution of the kingdom and its laws unfolded. The character of those who shall possess the kingdom is first dwelt upon. Notice that it is "the earth" which these "meek" shall inherit. "The Sermon on the mount" was not given to Christians. It is simply the law of Moses intensely spiritualized by One who understands its every requirement, and who knew what the holy law of God demanded. No honest heart who truly listens to the Sermon on the mount will ever claim righteousness by the keeping of it. When the times of "'restoration of all things" has come (Acts 3:21), then these requirements of Christ's kingdom will be enforced in the earth, when all men are under the sway and rule of God."
"In (Matthew) chapters five to seven, we have the constitution of the kingdom and its laws unfolded. The character of those who shall possess the kingdom is first dwelt upon. Notice that it is "the earth" which these "meek" shall inherit. "The Sermon on the mount" was not given to Christians. It is simply the law of Moses intensely spiritualized by One who understands its every requirement, and who knew what the holy law of God demanded. No honest heart who truly listens to the Sermon on the mount will ever claim righteousness by the keeping of it. When the times of "'restoration of all things" has come (Acts 3:21), then these requirements of Christ's kingdom will be enforced in the earth, when all men are under the sway and rule of God."
Technically, this is very correct...
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
First time any disciple was called a "Christian" was in Antioch but I do believe that the teachings of Christ were, are and always will be sound instruction for any Christian no matter when he/she lives.
Isaiah prophesied as much...
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
I won't bore everyone with the meanings of the words magnify and honourable. (I already did that in another thread)
I suspect He did, it came out of His mouth directly to Moses. Moses was simply the stenographer.
And I don't think anyone here would be so foolish as to proclaim that salvation is by keeping the Law. The Law is our standard of conduct that we are measured by. When we fall short, it is sin...
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Now this is where grace, the unearned, undeserved forgiveness for breaking the Law, comes in...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
as outlined in Romans 5...
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
And the faith that saves us, even that is not our own, it is the gift of God.
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TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
You say this with such a definitive certainty as if you have verified that you opinion on the matter is in fact truth. How do you know that is the case? Evidence please?
What is this truth you speak of Mr. Muller?
And as far as your point that people believe/cherry pick parts of scripture that backs their opinions and preconceptions, you are 100% right on. With that in mind, what's your take on the many scriptures that those who may disagree with your beliefs on the Rich Man/Lazarus story of Luke 16? They make some pretty solid, Bible-based points.
DO YOU?Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.
You have revealed to us that you do NOT understand parables yourself. Parables were not simple stories that uneducated farm folk could relate to. Christ did not use parable to illustrate His instruction so simple folk could understand, quite the opposite...
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
All are not called at this time, all cannot understand...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Why?
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The whole idea that God is desparately trying to save everyone today while the Devil is running around leading everyone to hell is the SDA false doctrine of the Great controversy. It is a myth and a heresy.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
These truths have not now and are not open for all to understand in this age...
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
this has not occurred yet and does not until the Millenium...
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Verse 4 is absolute proof that this has not happened yet. All one has to do is read the newspaper or watch the evening news to know that this hasn't occurred.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Here is the rest that Hebrews 4 speaks of and the Sabbath day is a shadow of and it will be like this...
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
The understanding of the scriptures wasn't available to the disciples until this miraculous event...
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
They couldn't understand and neither does the broad majority of mankind today but a time is coming when the scriptures will be opened to all...
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
All 66 of 'em.
I suspect it did since there is no evidence that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.
I have zero interest in discussing, much less arguing against, the doctrine of Soul Sleep. I'd just as soon play with my big toe ... LOL ...or watch paint dry
I full well understand.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a JW or SDA doctrine...
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Now tie in this one with I Ths 4:14...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
it is a doctrine of Christ, Paul and the New Testament.
I reckon due to your welcomed response, in reality instead of using the term "was not given to Christians." as M. Bodie did I would have said "was not given to believers." Like the law given to anyone it was for the purpose of showing the unbeliever where they're at in relation to God; it demanded all, and in essence it was aptly named "The ministration of death" written and engraven in stones.
Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in hisdeath, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
So was everyone sitting in Abraham's lap? And was it called Noah's Bosom before Abraham got there?lol Yes I do think it is strange that two men were having a conversation one in torment and the other sitting in Abraham's lap. Comment deleted There are many places in scripture that are allegorical and not to be taken necessarily literal. Parables are some of those instances.Of course it was a real event. Comment deletedSo I ask again....Is Lazarus sitting in the lap of Abraham having a conversation with a man being tormented in Hell? I also ask you what was this place that you claim is a real place called before it was called Abraham's Bosom? You know there were people who lived and died long before Abraham...what was this actual place called then? Noah's Bosom? A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth George let us not make it more than what it is. The whole point of the parable George was that Jesus was comparing the Pharisees to the rich man and the poor Jews to Lazarus. Those who have it good in this life don't always make it to the Kingdom of Heaven. And those whom we think are pathetic and worthless in this life may just end up in the Kingdom of Heaven. This parable was not intended as a description of the afterlife.DO YOU?Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.
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