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Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

I don't think anyone is questioning the life, it's where that life will be lived. I submit the Scriptures teach that man will live on earth as I've shown from numerous Scriptures.


That's the all but unanswerable question Butch. When we look at the word resurrection or the Greek, anastatis (sp?) and understand that the word implies only that that which was dead at some point would stand erect again, the most logical conclusion is that the resurrected would be raised to stand on the very ground/earth they were once dead on. Scriptures that tell us the earth will be destroyed raise some doubt. What also raises doubt is the rendering of the word, 'earth' in the texts. Does it literally refer to the entire globe that orbits the sun, or is earth simply a reference to land, a land that can be earthy, otherworldly, or perhaps even Heavenly?

Hi Truth,

The question is not unanswerable, it's in the Scriptures. The earth isn't going to be destroyed but rather restored. It will be made new, Peter said,

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Act 3:21 KJV)

Paul also said in Romans 8 that the creation itself will be delivered from bondage. Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth which He quoted from Psalm 37 which says the righteous shall inherit the earth and dwell in it forever.

The term earth is not as we think of it today as a planet in space. Genesis defines the term for us.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. (Gen 1:9-10 KJV)

The earth means the land. God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that the land in which they dwelt He would give to them as an "everlasting" possession. He said He would give it to them and to their seed. Paul goes on to say that Seed is Christ. Neither Abraham, Isaac, nor Jacob ever received that land. Therefore for God's promise to come to fruition they "MUST" inherit it in the future. The only way they can receive it in the future is if they are resurrected. I've written a paper on this subject if you are interested in reading it. It goes into this subject in depth and uses a lot of Scripture to show this promise of the eternal land inheritance to Abraham and how it is the hope of the Christian. You find it here, The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)
 
Hi Eugene,

One thing we need to keep in mind here is that in all of these passages John and Paul are seeing visions. John for instance is seeing Heaven and earth at the same time so it's hard for use to say someone before the throne is actually in Heaven. Additionally, Revelation uses a lot of symbolism which may not be literal.
Hi Butch and thanks for taking time to respond. First I would address this is the context of John being caught forward in spirit to the Lord's day. In Revelation 1:19 He does address the things that were the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; these are three different viewpoints.

The thing I would like to bring your attention is the third viewpoint of things hereafter from that time of the Lord's Day in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

With Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, . . Of course John speaks of being in spirit, and Paul mention being in spirit does not know if he was in or out of the body.

You quoted Rev 14:1 and Jesus standing on mount Sion, that's on the earth. When Jesus return it will be to mount Zion.

Did you consider Hebrews 12:22 that Mount Sion was in heaven. "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

Even if these were real people, none of these passage that Heaven is the final destiny of the believer or that these people were dwelling in Heaven.
That to me is true because in Revelation Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem (Mount Sion), coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Thanks again Butch.
 
Why did you add a reference to this verse in my quote (highlighted by me in red)? My original quote is this: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52140&p=808853&viewfull=1#post808853

But anyway...we see from the entire message Jesus spoke there in John that he is referring to the Holy Spirit which he would send back to the world. And he did that so that we could be where he is at--in the glory of God, where he is at. Read it, you'll see. Which I think is the point of what Paul meant when he said "(he) raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 1:6 NASB). IOW, John 14:3 is not a verse about the second coming. Nor is it a verse about us being in heaven. But we will go there when we die and will be with Christ in his triumphant second coming to earth.




No, actually I was referring to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:22 NASB.

Even if you want to believe the story is a parable it makes no sense at all that Jesus would invent something that doesn't happen to illustrate something that does. From the passage we see no such thing as 'soul sleep', and we see angels delivering departed spirits to wherever they go when they die, and the simple fact they do go somewhere out of this earth when they die. Coupled with Paul's 'go to be with Jesus' we can see how the doctrine of 'going to heaven' is developed from the scriptures, not some man's vain imagination.



Paul said "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep." 1 Thess. 4:15 As we can see here Jethro those who have "fallen asleep" i.e. died are not in heaven but are awaiting as we the 2nd Coming of the Lord. But hey if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to believe that when we die we straight to the Kingdom of Heaven then by all means continue to do so.:)
Sorry, but this does not explain all the saints who comes back with Jesus from heaven at the second coming. Obviously those still alive on earth at that time are not those coming back with Jesus at the second coming.


Hi Jethro,

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is grossly misunderstood. My question is two fold. 1. If it is teaching a conscious existence after death, how does it fit the contest of the conversation that Jesus is having. 2. If it teaches a conscious existence after death it would contradict the rest of Scripture, would Jesus do that?
 
Hi Jack,

If you believe that Lazarus and the rich man proves a conscious existence after death can you please explain to me how that fits the context of what Jesus has been saying? (bolded by Jack)
`

Hello Butch5,

/Big Grin .. ha, that is the most unusual question I've ever been asked.

The opposite of a "conscious existence after death" is an "unconscious existence after death" which would make the entire message of Luke 16:19-31 totally pointless.

Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain concsious after death, wouldn't you agree?

Re "the context of what Jesus has been saying" : I assume you meant what Jesus has been saying in the Luke 16:19-31 passage? If so, the entire context of what Jesus is saying assumes a consciousness after death. The Rich Man had died and was consciously talking from Hell, "after death." The Rich Man's talking "after death" assumes that the Rich Man was "conscious after death" because unconscious men do not talk.

All that up there is so obvious, that I must be misunderstanding your question. Perhaps you could ask it another way, for clarity's sake?

Cheers.

 
Oh and yes the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a fictional story. A fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth
No one can say this is fictional! Thats just your opinion, probably because it goes against some doctrine you hold. Jesus does not use fiction, and the point was and is the man went to heck, Lazarus went unto Abraham.
Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.:)
 
It looks like we're going to have to have discussion about Lazarus and the Rich man. It seems some believe this passages is suggesting a conscious existence after death. For those who are seriously inquiring I would like pose a few questions.

1. Why was Lazarus taken to paradise and not Heaven?
2. Why was he carried to Abraham's bosom? Why Abraham?
3. Why did Jesus specify that the Rich man had 5 brothers.
4. Why is the rich man condemned to Hell for being rich and Lazarus sent to Abraham's bosom for being poor?
5 Is there any significance to Lazarus' desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table?
6. How would that idea fit the context of Jesus' conversation?
7. How do you address that this would be completely unique and contrary to what the Bible teaches on the subject outside of this one passage?

There are more but think about these and see what you come up with.
 
Hi Jack,

If you believe that Lazarus and the rich man proves a conscious existence after death can you please explain to me how that fits the context of what Jesus has been saying? (bolded by Jack)
`

Hello Butch5,

/Big Grin .. ha, that is the most unusual question I've ever been asked.

The opposite of a "conscious existence after death" is an "unconscious existence after death" which would make the entire message of Luke 16:19-31 totally pointless.

Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain concsious after death, wouldn't you agree?

Re "the context of what Jesus has been saying" : I assume you meant what Jesus has been saying in the Luke 16:19-31 passage? If so, the entire context of what Jesus is saying assumes a consciousness after death. The Rich Man had died and was consciously talking from Hell, "after death." The Rich Man's talking "after death" assumes that the Rich Man was "conscious after death" because unconscious men do not talk.

All that up there is so obvious, that I must be misunderstanding your question. Perhaps you could ask it another way, for clarity's sake?

Cheers.


Hi Jack,

No, I would not agree that every Christian believes that one is conscious after death. I for one do not and know other who do not.

My question about Jesus' conversation is this, Lazarus and the rich man is a parable in an on going conversation. Look at chapters 14-17 for context. I am asking how your understanding of Lazarus and the rich man fits within the larger context of these chapters. There are two parables that precede the one about Lazarus and the rich man how do they play into the context with Lazarus and the rich man? Here is what Jesus said right before he gave the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. (Luk 16:14-18 KJV)

Why the statement about adultery seemingly out of the blue? All of this plays into the context of the Parable.
 
Hi Jack,

If you believe that Lazarus and the rich man proves a conscious existence after death can you please explain to me how that fits the context of what Jesus has been saying? (bolded by Jack)
`

Hello Butch5,

/Big Grin .. ha, that is the most unusual question I've ever been asked.

The opposite of a "conscious existence after death" is an "unconscious existence after death" which would make the entire message of Luke 16:19-31 totally pointless.

Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain concsious after death, wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely NOT! When one dies, they are unconscious until the resurrection...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And when are we made alive again? AT HIS COMING!

Not everyone believes the lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Re "the context of what Jesus has been saying" : I assume you meant what Jesus has been saying in the Luke 16:19-31 passage? If so, the entire context of what Jesus is saying assumes a consciousness after death. The Rich Man had died and was consciously talking from Hell, "after death." The Rich Man's talking "after death" assumes that the Rich Man was "conscious after death" because unconscious men do not talk.

All that up there is so obvious, that I must be misunderstanding your question. Perhaps you could ask it another way, for clarity's sake?

Cheers.


First of all, it is a parable...

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for

He is talking to the Pharisees and those around Him...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

If the parable of Lazarus and the rich man were true, let's look at the implications...

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

1) They can see each other.
2) They can hear each other.

Is this true? Is this real? For if it is then saved mothers can see they lost children burning and roasting in hell and hear their shrieks and screams. Now isn't that a pleasant thought? The ETERNAL reward of mothers is to see and hear their lost children burning and roasting and screaming and shrieking for ALL ETERNITY.

You still believe this is the creation of a loving God?

It is a parable and the lesson is this...

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Without posting the entire analysis of this parable (I have already done so many times) the Rich Man represents Judah, Abraham is Abraham and Lazarus is Eliezer. Look into who these people are, Judah had 5 brothers. Lazarus was teh faithful servant of Abraham and the lesson is that the gentiles would go into the Kingdom before the Pharisees who condemned Christ even though they knew better...

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
 
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Hi Eugene,

One thing we need to keep in mind here is that in all of these passages John and Paul are seeing visions. John for instance is seeing Heaven and earth at the same time so it's hard for use to say someone before the throne is actually in Heaven. Additionally, Revelation uses a lot of symbolism which may not be literal.
Hi Butch and thanks for taking time to respond. First I would address this is the context of John being caught forward in spirit to the Lord's day. In Revelation 1:19 He does address the things that were the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; these are three different viewpoints.

The thing I would like to bring your attention is the third viewpoint of things hereafter from that time of the Lord's Day in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

With Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, . . Of course John speaks of being in spirit, and Paul mention being in spirit does not know if he was in or out of the body.

I agree that's why I believe John was seeing Heaven and earth at the same time.

You quoted Rev 14:1 and Jesus standing on mount Sion, that's on the earth. When Jesus return it will be to mount Zion.

Did you consider Hebrews 12:22 that Mount Sion was in heaven. "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

I have. However, Paul was addressing living believers who undoubtedly were not in Heaven. Heavenly here is an adjective and I believe it's giving a quality of the city. I believe it is areference to the New Jerusalem that will be revealed in the kingdom.

Even if these were real people, none of these passage that Heaven is the final destiny of the believer or that these people were dwelling in Heaven.
That to me is true because in Revelation Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem (Mount Sion), coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Agreed.
 
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The earth means the land.

Point of agreement; earth definately means land. Now what I don't know as it relates to the resurrection is what lands will be in existence and where those lands will be. Is the earth the 3rd rock from our sun or is it perhap a general reference to land that can exist anywhere throughout the universe?

God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that the land in which they dwelt He would give to them as an "everlasting" possession. He said He would give it to them and to their seed. Paul goes on to say that Seed is Christ. Neither Abraham, Isaac, nor Jacob ever received that land. Therefore for God's promise to come to fruition they "MUST" inherit it in the future.

According to Joshua 21:43-45, 1 Kings 4:20-21, and Nehemiah 9:7-8, the land promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago. Getting caught up on the word 'everlasting' appears to be a stubbling block that causes folks to look for a future fulfillment despite the scriptures saying that fulfillment is past.
 
First I would address this is the context of John being caught forward in spirit to the Lord's day. In Revelation 1:19 He does address the things that were the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; these are three different viewpoints.

The thing I would like to bring your attention is the third viewpoint of things hereafter from that time of the Lord's Day in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

With Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, . . Of course John speaks of being in spirit, and Paul mention being in spirit does not know if he was in or out of the body.

I agree that's why I believe John was seeing Heaven and earth at the same time.

I disagree with that before Revelation 4:1 for this fact contained in the three viewpoints from the same point in time; The Lord's Day. John from that future time was shown what he had seen, what was occurring in this present 2000 or so years, and then again in Revelation 4:1 after being caught up into heaven those things that would be hereafter from that same point of time earthly views of the tribulation were shown John from the perspective of Heaven.

John is shown five viewpoints as per the following scriptures.

1 - Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day
2 - Revelation 4:1 Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
3 - Revelation 13:1 I stood upon the sand of the sea.
4 - Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness.
5 - Revelation 21:10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.
 
First I would address this is the context of John being caught forward in spirit to the Lord's day. In Revelation 1:19 He does address the things that were the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; these are three different viewpoints.

The thing I would like to bring your attention is the third viewpoint of things hereafter from that time of the Lord's Day in Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

With Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, . . Of course John speaks of being in spirit, and Paul mention being in spirit does not know if he was in or out of the body.

I agree that's why I believe John was seeing Heaven and earth at the same time.

I disagree with that before Revelation 4:1 for this fact contained in the three viewpoints from the same point in time; The Lord's Day. John from that future time was shown what he had seen, what was occurring in this present 2000 or so years, and then again in Revelation 4:1 after being caught up into heaven those things that would be hereafter from that same point of time earthly views of the tribulation were shown John from the perspective of Heaven.

John is shown five viewpoints as per the following scriptures.

1 - Revelation 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day
2 - Revelation 4:1 Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
3 - Revelation 13:1 I stood upon the sand of the sea.
4 - Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness.
5 - Revelation 21:10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.


How do you understand "on the Lord's day"?

You don't think John was seeing things both in Heaven and on earth? Do you think the high mountain and the desert are in Heaven?
 
The earth means the land.

Point of agreement; earth definately means land. Now what I don't know as it relates to the resurrection is what lands will be in existence and where those lands will be. Is the earth the 3rd rock from our sun or is it perhap a general reference to land that can exist anywhere throughout the universe?

The land is the on this earth In Psalm two Christ is promised the heathen and the ends of the land as His possession.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession (Psa 2:7-8 KJV)

Peter and Paul both speak of a restored earth.


God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that the land in which they dwelt He would give to them as an "everlasting" possession. He said He would give it to them and to their seed. Paul goes on to say that Seed is Christ. Neither Abraham, Isaac, nor Jacob ever received that land. Therefore for God's promise to come to fruition they "MUST" inherit it in the future.

According to Joshua 21:43-45, 1 Kings 4:20-21, and Nehemiah 9:7-8, the land promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago. Getting caught up on the word 'everlasting' appears to be a stubbling block that causes folks to look for a future fulfillment despite the scriptures saying that fulfillment is past.

Truth, the land promise was "not" fulfilled. Israel did get an inheritance in the land, however, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never did. The land was specifically promised to these three men as an everlasting possession.

The Promise to Abraham,

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
(Gen 13:14-15 KJV)

The promise to Isaac,

KJV Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Gen 26:1-5 KJV)

The promise to Jacob,

12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 28:12-14 KJV)

These are the only three men who were given this promise. It was to them and their seed. Paul addresses this "Seed" in Galatians.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Stephen said in Acts that Abraham never received that land.

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

God promised this land to Abraham personally as an everlasting possession and Abraham has not received it yet. If you read that paper I linked it goes into great detail and uses a lot of Scripture to support what is said. The Scriptures over and over that man will live on the earth.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. (Act 7:2-8 KJV)
 
Oh and yes the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a fictional story. A fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth
No one can say this is fictional! Thats just your opinion, probably because it goes against some doctrine you hold. Jesus does not use fiction, and the point was and is the man went to heck, Lazarus went unto Abraham.
Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.:)
DO YOU?
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.
 
Hi Jack. No, I would not agree that every Christian believes that one is conscious after death. I for one do not and know other who do not.

Hello Butch,

Opps! When I made my comment where I said, "Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain conscious after death, wouldn't you agree?", I had no idea I was getting involved in a discussion about Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep is a Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA doctrine, as I recall.

In the last couple of hours I honestly tried to talk myself into getting interested in researching arguments against Soul Sleep and presenting them to you, but just thinking about doing that almost put me to sleep ... LOL

I have zero interest in discussing, much less arguing against, the doctrine of Soul Sleep. I'd just as soon play with my big toe ... LOL ...or watch paint dry :D

Cheers.

♫♫

PS
Thank you for replying to my post, I appreciate it.

`
 
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I had no idea I was getting involved in a discussion about Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep is a Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA doctrine, as I recall.


Well that answers a question for me. I have never heard such things as some are trying to present on this thread?:tongue
 
Well that answers a question for me. I have never heard such things as some are trying to present on this thread?

George, here are 2 articles you might find interesting and worth bookmarking:

Afterlife And The Bible
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1478

___________

One Second After Death
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1188

This link is an article presenting some interesting arguments why the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable.

Start quote.
"A clear depiction of existence beyond death is seen in Luke 16:19-31. Some argue that this section of Scripture is a parable, which is incorrect since the story does not contain the usual indicators of parabolic discourse.

However, even if the passage were a parable, a parable is not a fairy tale. Bible parables parallel true-life situations to teach a basic lesson of truth. They draw from reality and that which people understand as actual earthly existence and genuine conditions in order to drive home a spiritual point.



After reading Luke 16:19-31, observe the following textual details:
  1. Both men are said to have died.
  2. Wherever Lazarus went, angels were used to transport him there.
  3. The rich man was buried.
  4. The rich man was in hades.
  5. The rich man was being tormented in flames.
  6. The rich man could see and recognize Lazarus and Abraham.
  7. Abraham referred to the rich man’s former existence as “your lifetime.â€
  8. Abraham made clear that their respective locations were irreversible.
  9. The rich man’s brothers were still occupying his father’s house on Earth.
  10. The Law of Moses was still in effect.
  11. The rich man’s plea to send Lazarus to his living relatives would require Lazarus to return “from the dead†(vs. 30) and to “rise from the dead†(vs. 31)."
End quote.http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1188

Cheers.

 
Hi Jack. No, I would not agree that every Christian believes that one is conscious after death. I for one do not and know other who do not.

Hello Butch,

Opps! When I made my comment where I said, "Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain conscious after death, wouldn't you agree?", I had no idea I was getting involved in a discussion about Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep is a Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA doctrine, as I recall.

In the last couple of hours I honestly tried to talk myself into getting interested in researching arguments against Soul Sleep and presenting them to you, but just thinking about doing that almost put me to sleep ... LOL

I have zero interest in discussing, much less arguing against, the doctrine of Soul Sleep. I'd just as soon play with my big toe ... LOL ...or watch paint dry :D

Cheers.

♫♫

PS
Thank you for replying to my post, I appreciate it.

`

Hi Jack,

Just because the JW's hold a doctrine doesn't mean it's wrong. The Scriptures simply don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body. The idea is simply inferred from certain passages of Scripture. The idea of a conscious existence outside of the body came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. If you get interested in looking at the subject I can recommend a Scripturally based study that you can look at and consider the evidence.
 
I have a question for those who think Luke 16 is about the afterlife. I've asked how this would fit the context. Nothing in the surrounding text speaks of the afterlife. So, why, in the middle of His discourse would Jesus stop, then suddenly break into a discourse on the afterlife to the Pharisees and then stop and return to His previous discourse? If you went to a computer seminar and the speaker suddenly broke into a discourse on poetry wouldn't you think something was up?
 
Well that answers a question for me. I have never heard such things as some are trying to present on this thread?

George, here are 2 articles you might find interesting and worth bookmarking:

Afterlife And The Bible
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1478

___________

One Second After Death
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1188

This link is an article presenting some interesting arguments why the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT a parable.

Start quote.
"A clear depiction of existence beyond death is seen in Luke 16:19-31. Some argue that this section of Scripture is a parable, which is incorrect since the story does not contain the usual indicators of parabolic discourse.

However, even if the passage were a parable, a parable is not a fairy tale. Bible parables parallel true-life situations to teach a basic lesson of truth. They draw from reality and that which people understand as actual earthly existence and genuine conditions in order to drive home a spiritual point.




After reading Luke 16:19-31, observe the following textual details:
  1. Both men are said to have died.
  2. Wherever Lazarus went, angels were used to transport him there.
  3. The rich man was buried.
  4. The rich man was in hades.
  5. The rich man was being tormented in flames.
  6. The rich man could see and recognize Lazarus and Abraham.
  7. Abraham referred to the rich man’s former existence as “your lifetime.â€
  8. Abraham made clear that their respective locations were irreversible.
  9. The rich man’s brothers were still occupying his father’s house on Earth.
  10. The Law of Moses was still in effect.
  11. The rich man’s plea to send Lazarus to his living relatives would require Lazarus to return “from the dead†(vs. 30) and to “rise from the dead†(vs. 31)."
End quote.http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1188

Cheers.

Thanks Jack, I am confident for myself this is an actual event, but you know very well that on these forums, we can not always accept the Lord at His word, but must defend every truth with several sources of scripture. Gets a little old sometimes, but makes us better bible students in the long run, i think?:chin blessings
 
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