Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Jack Hectorman]

Hi Jack. No, I would not agree that every Christian believes that one is conscious after death. I for one do not and know other who do not.

Hello Butch,

Opps! When I made my comment where I said, "Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain conscious after death, wouldn't you agree?", I had no idea I was getting involved in a discussion about Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep is a Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA doctrine, as I recall.

In the last couple of hours I honestly tried to talk myself into getting interested in researching arguments against Soul Sleep and presenting them to you, but just thinking about doing that almost put me to sleep ... LOL

I have zero interest in discussing, much less arguing against, the doctrine of Soul Sleep. I'd just as soon play with my big toe ... LOL ...or watch paint dry

Cheers.

♫♫

PS
Thank you for replying to my post, I appreciate it.

`

Hi Jack,

Just because the JW's hold a doctrine doesn't mean it's wrong. The Scriptures simply don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body. The idea is simply inferred from certain passages of Scripture. The idea of a conscious existence outside of the body came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. If you get interested in looking at the subject I can recommend a Scripturally based study that you can look at and consider the evidence.

(bolded by Jack)

Hi Butch,

I thank you for your offer, I know you are sincerely trying to enlighten my path, much appreciated. If I ever do get interested in the doctrine, I will remember your offer and get the information from you, and do the study, thanks again.

Cheers.

♫♫

 

[George Muller]

The idea is simply inferred from certain passages of Scripture. The idea of a conscious existence outside of the body came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

First you say it can be inferred from scripture, then you say it comes from Greek philosphy and Gnosticsim? It comes from the clear and evident reading of the scripture, I think if one has tied themself to JW doctrine, they really should not be trying to cast others as holding gnostic doctrines, considering the obsolute rejection of truth that one finds in the JW groups.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
2Co 5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord. (YLT)

 

[George Muller]

Nothing in the surrounding text speaks of the afterlife.

Lu 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Its all about afterlife and how some claim to serve God but reject Christ "who is the Life"

 

[Jack Hectorman]

Thanks Jack, I am confident for myself this is an actual event, but you know very well that on these forums, we can not always accept the Lord at His word, but must defend every truth with several sources of scripture. Gets a little old sometimes, but makes us better bible students in the long run, i think?
blessings

(bolded by Jack)

George, ya 'elcome, my pleasure, and thanks for the blessings.

"Gets a little old sometimes"__George Muller

/Big Grin ... I hear ya! ... I been out here in Webby World long enough to where I pick my fights very carefully. LOL

"but makes us better bible students in the long run, i think?"__George Muller

Cheers.

♪ ♪ ♫ ♫

 

[Jack Hectorman]

`
To John 8:32 @ post 108

John, thank you for replying to my post, I read your 108 very carefully.

Cheers.

♫♫

 

[Butch5]

In Luke 16 Jesus talks of Lazarus being in Abraham's bosom and the rich man in torment. Did Jesus make mention of this somewhere else?

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. (Mat 8:9-13 KJV)

This seems to say the same thing as Luke 16, however, it says nothing of the after life. In Luke 16 we see the Gentile sitting with Abraham while the rich man (Jew, child of the kingdom) has been cast out into outer darkness where this is gnashing of teeth.

If we look at the context of Luke 16 we find that in the parable prior to Lazarus and the rich man a parable about the unfaithful steward losing his stewardship. Jesus then brings up marriage and adultery (seemingly out of no where) when speaking to the Pharisees. Wasn't Jesus about to take the stewardship away from the Jews? Weren't they the unfaithful stewards of God's word? Then in the next parable we see the same thing. The Gentiles (Lazarus) begging crumbs from the rich man's table.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
(Mat 15:24-28 KJV)

The Gentiles had faith and the Jews rejected Christ, God's Son.

Then we find the Gentile Lazarus sitting in the kingdom with Abraham, just as Jesus had said earlier, while the rich man, (the steward, Priesthood) is cast into out darkness.

 

[Butch5]

Nothing in the surrounding text speaks of the afterlife.

Lu 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Its all about afterlife and how some claim to serve God but reject Christ "who is the Life"

George, you can't quote the passage in question to prove your point about the passage in question.

 

[Butch5]

The idea is simply inferred from certain passages of Scripture. The idea of a conscious existence outside of the body came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

First you say it can be inferred from scripture, then you say it comes from Greek philosphy and Gnosticsim? It comes from the clear and evident reading of the scripture, I think if one has tied themself to JW doctrine, they really should not be trying to cast others as holding gnostic doctrines, considering the obsolute rejection of truth that one finds in the JW groups.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
2Co 5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord. (YLT)

George, it's not a JW doctrine, its' been around since Christianity began, it is the first belief of the Christian faith. Simply proof texting passages does not prove your point. I didn't say it can be inferred from Scripture I said it is inferred. Just like OSAS is inferred and not in Scripture. Rather than seeks the Scriptures many Christians simple believe what is popular regardless of the Scriptures. Several have already gone to the Scripture and established what happens to a person a death. What you guys are claiming about Luke 16 contradicts plain statements of Scripture about what happens when a man dies. How do you deal with this contradiction?

We have the creation of man in Genesis, it says that God took the dust of the earth and breathed into it His breath/spirit and it became a living soul. So, according to Genesis, a sole is a body and God's breath/spirit. Then Job said that if God was to retrieve His breath/spirit "all" flesh would die. Solomon said that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and the breath/spirit returns to God. What is there to live on? The body returns to dust and God retrieves His breath/spirit. There's nothing left, there is nothing to live on. Are you suggesting that Jesus' parable is Luke 16 contradicts what He inspired those writers to write in the OT?

Another problem you have with that interpretation of Luke 16 is that you have the rich man burning in fire "BEFORE" the judgment. Additionally, Hades is not the place of burning, that is Gehenna, yet in Jesus' parable the rich man is in Hades.

Why is the rich man condemned? do all of the rich burn? if not what is Jesus point because the only thing He tells us about this man going to Hades is that he was rich. Obviously his being rich has something to do with his being in Hades in the parable. It would seem that either the rich man represents someone or something, or the rich all burn. What say you?

Both of the passages you've posted have been addressed. In Eph 6 the word "places" has been added by translators and to be present with the Lord doesn't necessitate being in Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Jack. No, I would not agree that every Christian believes that one is conscious after death. I for one do not and know other who do not.

Hello Butch,

Opps! When I made my comment where I said, "Btw, every Christian on the planet believes that all humans are "conscious after death", and remain conscious after death, wouldn't you agree?", I had no idea I was getting involved in a discussion about Soul Sleep. Soul Sleep is a Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA doctrine, as I recall.

In the last couple of hours I honestly tried to talk myself into getting interested in researching arguments against Soul Sleep and presenting them to you, but just thinking about doing that almost put me to sleep ... LOL

I have zero interest in discussing, much less arguing against, the doctrine of Soul Sleep. I'd just as soon play with my big toe ... LOL ...or watch paint dry

Cheers.

♫♫

PS
Thank you for replying to my post, I appreciate it.

`

Hi Jack,

Just because the JW's hold a doctrine doesn't mean it's wrong. The Scriptures simply don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body. The idea is simply inferred from certain passages of Scripture. The idea of a conscious existence outside of the body came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism. If you get interested in looking at the subject I can recommend a Scripturally based study that you can look at and consider the evidence.

(bolded by Jack)

Hi Butch,

I thank you for your offer, I know you are sincerely trying to enlighten my path, much appreciated. If I ever do get interested in the doctrine, I will remember your offer and get the information from you, and do the study, thanks again.

Cheers.

♫♫

You're welcome Jack, Let me say I know the Heavenly destiny is popular however it is not what was first believed. The first Christians refuted the idea.

 

[George Muller]

You're welcome Jack, Let me say I know the Heavenly destiny is popular however it is not what was first believed. The first Christians refuted the idea.

HERE IS WHAT THE CHURCH HAS ALWAYS BELIEVED;

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
2Co 5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord. (YLT)

 

[George Muller]

Simply proof texting passages does not prove your point

Of course the clear text are the proof, what do you need a long explanation of mans carnal reasonings to explain away what God has said in clear words?

 

[Larry H]

Where in the New Testament does Jesus or the Apostles mention an earthly resurrection in a physcial body ??

 

[Butch5]

You're welcome Jack, Let me say I know the Heavenly destiny is popular however it is not what was first believed. The first Christians refuted the idea.

HERE IS WHAT THE CHURCH HAS ALWAYS BELIEVED;

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
2Co 5:8 we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord. (YLT)

Yes, but they didn't understand it the way you are.

 

[Butch5]

Where in the New Testament does Jesus or the Apostles mention an earthly resurrection in a physcial body ??

Where did they mention going to Heaven?

 

[Butch5]

Simply proof texting passages does not prove your point

Of course the clear text are the proof, what do you need a long explanation of mans carnal reasonings to explain away what God has said in clear words?

Where did God say people go to Heaven when they die? Where is this clear text?

 

[George Muller]

In Eph 6 the word "places" has been added by translators and to be present with the Lord doesn't necessitate being in Heaven.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (Good, take "places"out and its a better point )

2032. epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

 

[George Muller]

Simply proof texting passages does not prove your point

Of course the clear text are the proof, what do you need a long explanation of mans carnal reasonings to explain away what God has said in clear words?

Where did God say people go to Heaven when they die? Where is this clear text?

I have already seen many people post in very clear words this very thing. Comment deleted I will post this again;


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (Good, take "places"out and its a better point )

2032. epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

 

[Eugene]

How do you understand "on the Lord's day"?

The Lord's Day is the time Jesus' receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2 instead of sitting in His Father's throne (Revelation 3:21). Other references are "In that day" many times, and "the Day of the Lord."

You don't think John was seeing things both in Heaven and on earth? Do you think the high mountain and the desert are in Heaven?

No I don't, and personally think Jesus' angel took John in spirit to this new location.

 

[George Muller]

Where in the New Testament does Jesus or the Apostles mention an earthly resurrection in a physcial body ??

Not sure what you mean by the term "earthly resurrection in a physical body" but the scriptures are pretty clear on this issue also.

Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Danus]

Here is another one to remind you. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5 The two angels in Acts 1:11 told Jesus' disciples that he would come back....to earth.

Does that verse mean inherit the old earth or new earth in afterlife.

What did Jesus say?

We need @Danus on this one.

Danus to the rescue!!!!....uh....whose Danus?

Sorry guys I've been preoccupied planning my upcoming vacation.

I'm sure this thread has taken it's own path by now, but I did want to comment on Grapplers verses. This probably has nothing to do with the OP, but the beatitudes, or supreme blessing is an interesting group of verse when asking the question who will go to heaven.
Mathew 5:3-12
He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

A lot of folks read this and it appears that Jesus is describing several different types of people. You got the poor in spirit, the mournful, the meek, the ones ones who hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on, But what God is actually describing is not several types of people; but one type; A saved individual.

When I first meet Christ I was poor in spirit. My soul mourned for what I knew I was, a sinner. I became meek and humble and I hungered for righteousness. In my maturity in Christ I feel mercy and compassion towards others. I wish I could say I'm pure at heart, but that change has also been developing in me. Peacemaker? I don't know I have two kids does that count? I'd rather not be persecuted, but as my relationship grows in Christ people know about it, and I am often the butt of jokes in my office.

What Christ is describing in the beatitudes is a Christian. at the end He says, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
To be honest Heaven was the farthest thing from my mind when I meet Christ. Now I see it more as a place God would have me rather then a desire I long for. The promise is His to us rather than some goal I concern myself with, because I know I have no chance without Him.