Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Larry H]

@Danus You missed the question completely. That's ok, but the question was when the Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth. Are they talking about us inheriting this old earth as we live our lives now or inherit the new earth after judgment day in the afterlife? Blessings.

I believe biblically it's referring to the "new" heaven & earth.

If you are of Christ, and if I told you the world belonged to you now, the meek, would that surprise you? Note the following in the present tense.

1 Corinthians 3:21 So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours,

22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future — all are yours,

23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

This is speaking in God's eye which are the only ones that count.

 

[Grappler]

Do you not understand what a parable is? Ok so let me get this straight. Lazarus is sitting in Abraham's lap just chit chatting away with a man being tormented in Hell?? and you think that is real?? It amazes me at how people try to use a simple parable to construct an entire doctrine of the afterlife.lol This was not meant to be some kind of description of how the afterlife is by Jesus.

DO YOU?
You used the word fictional, and Jesus dont speak fiction, He speaks truth. Now no man knows for sure if this was a parable of truth or an actual event? But to call it fiction is an insult to the truth being presented by the Lord. The fact that the Lord used a man by name, would suggest that this is a very real man and a very real event. Study His parables and you will not find that He uses personal names, but will descibe folks in general as to make a picture of truth to His point.

You have revealed to us that you do NOT understand parables yourself. Parables were not simple stories that uneducated farm folk could relate to. Christ did not use parable to illustrate His instruction so simple folk could understand, quite the opposite...

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

All are not called at this time, all cannot understand...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Why?

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The whole idea that God is desparately trying to save everyone today while the Devil is running around leading everyone to hell is the SDA false doctrine of the Great controversy. It is a myth and a heresy.

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

These truths have not now and are not open for all to understand in this age...

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

this has not occurred yet and does not until the Millenium...

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Verse 4 is absolute proof that this has not happened yet. All one has to do is read the newspaper or watch the evening news to know that this hasn't occurred.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Here is the rest that Hebrews 4 speaks of and the Sabbath day is a shadow of and it will be like this...

Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Amo 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

The understanding of the scriptures wasn't available to the disciples until this miraculous event...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

They couldn't understand and neither does the broad majority of mankind today but a time is coming when the scriptures will be opened to all...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

All 66 of 'em.

Excellent point. Most people do not realize that Jesus spoke in parables so that they would NOT understand....and we can still see that today.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

If you recall, according to the gospels Jesus was resurrected TO THE EARTH and not to HEAVEN. He is said to have ascended weeks after His resurrection. So, if the resurrection of the saints is to be like Jesus' resurrection, then it is quite reasonable to conclude that the saints were to have been resurrected to life on the Earth just as Jesus was.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Heaven was promised to some, but Who is among that number?
The picture painted by scripture seems to indicate that Heaven is indeed a real place. Isaiah 66:1 says that Heaven is God's Throne and the Earth his footstool. Jesus, in John said the following:

Chp 14
1 ‘Now, don’t let your hearts be troubled; just have faith in God and have faith in me. 2 There are many places to stay in my Father’s house… if this weren’t so, I wouldn’t have told you that I’m going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I’m going to prepare a place for you, I will also return and take you with me, so you’ll be where I am… 4 and then you’ll know the way to where I’m going.’

Chp 3
10 And Jesus answered, ‘You’re a teacher of IsraEl, and yet you don’t know? 11 I tell you the truth; We know what we’re saying and we’re testifying to things that we’ve seen; but you aren’t accepting our testimony… 12 and if you don’t believe the earthly things, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 ‘No one has gone to heaven other than he who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

and Paul had this to say in 2 Cor:

1 Yes, although it isn’t good, I have to brag! Allow me to pass along some supernatural visions and revelations from [the] Lord:
2 I know a man in the Anointed One, who some fourteen years ago (whether [it happened] in the body or out of the body, I don’t know, only God knows) was caught away (in whatever state) into the third heaven. 3 Yes, I know such a man (whether [it happened] in the body or apart from the body I don’t know, only God knows), 4 who was caught away into paradise and heard unspeakable things that are illegal for a man to say.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

I suspect it did since there is no evidence that man is conscious after death until the resurrection. (bolded by Jack)

/smile ... Your statement can mean only that there is no evidence that has convinced you and those who agree with you.

But there are a lot of evidences that have convinced me, and those who agree with me, that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.

Both sides are firmly convinced that they have sufficient evidence to support their position. Both sides affirm the other side to hold incorrect interpretations of the passages that bear on this issue.

Each person on both sides MUST decide for themselves whither there is, or is not, solid evidence demonstrating that man is conscious after death until the resurrection. Each man must decide for himself because no one person has the power and authority to decide that question for other people.

Moreover, there is no organization on this earth that has the power and authority to decide which side is correct or incorrect in their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures that bear upon this issue. There is no International Authority That Decides Who Has Correctly Interpreted The Bible on this issue, or on any other issue.

Each person can decide for themselves what is the correct interpretation of every verse in the Holy Bible, no other person has the power and authority to decide that for them.

Both sides holding opposite contradictory positions, can (and usually do) issue proclamations that they have the correct interpretations of the Bible verses bearing upon the positions they hold.

Both sides usually demand that the opposing side explain their "rebutal verses" to their personal satisfaction, and all other verses to their personal satisfaction, and almost always the decision on both sides is that "You have failed to explain them to my satisfaction." LOL

A Reasonable Conclusion:

I do not have the power and authority to decide for you that there is solid evidence that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.

You do not have the power and authority to decide for me that there is solid evidence that man is not conscious after death until the resurrection.

/smile ... We will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Cheers.

♫♫♫♫

 

[Danus]

@Danus You missed the question completely. That's ok, but the question was when the Bible says the meek shall inherit the earth. Are they talking about us inheriting this old earth as we live our lives now or inherit the new earth after judgment day in the afterlife? Blessings.

I believe biblically it's referring to the "new" heaven & earth.

If you are of Christ, and if I told you the world belonged to you now, the meek, would that surprise you? Note the following in the present tense.

1 Corinthians 3:21 So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours,

22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future — all are yours,

23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

This is speaking in God's eye which are the only ones that count.

I'm not sure to what context you are referring in connecting 1 Corinthian 3:21 to the beatitude of the meek inheriting the earth. Paul and Jesus are not referring to the same Idea exactly within the context of those to recorded verses. Paul's talking about the present, Christ it talking about something more specific.

What makes the beatitude more appropriate to the OP is that it's referring to the kingdom of heaven. Paul is talking about the church and its leadership.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

/smile ... Your statement can mean only that there is no evidence that has convinced you and those who agree with you.
But there are a lot of evidences that have convinced me, and those who agree with me, that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.

For the record, I am convinced that the evidence for what you term 'soul sleep' (aka genuine death) is more heavily supported by the scriptures than the idea of consciousness during death is. From Job, to Samual's mother, to Jesus, the Bible talks about the resurrection hope as opposed to the idea of Heave/Hell/Bosom of Abraham immediately after death. But, you also have texts that talk about communicating with the dead and the Medium at Endor that somehow seemed to conjur up Samuel for King Saul that takes a contradictory stance.

Both sides are firmly convinced that they have sufficient evidence to support their position. Both sides affirm the other side to hold incorrect interpretations of the passages that bear on this issue.
Both sides holding opposite contradictory positions, can (and usually do) issue proclamations that they have the correct interpretations of the Bible verses bearing upon the positions they hold.
Both sides usually demand that the opposing side explain their "rebutal verses" to their personal satisfaction, and all other verses to their personal satisfaction, and almost always the decision on both sides is that "You have failed to explain them to my satisfaction." LOL

A Reasonable Conclusion:

Neither side has satidfactory evidence as the 'source material' is not explicitly clear on the matter and at times seems to contradict itself. Because of these 'source material' issues, there is no way to arrive at a correct and definitive conclusion.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

For the record, I am convinced that the evidence for what you term 'soul sleep' (aka genuine death) is more heavily supported by the scriptures than the idea of consciousness during death is.

TOT,

Here is a very interesting idea from the distinguished reformer, Martin Luther, who held the doctrine of "Soul Sleep."

"Althaus notes that Luther held time was irrelevant from the eternal perspective.

For those who die, their awakening from “soul sleep†is felt as immediate.

Luther says, “Here you must put time out of your mind and know that in that world there is neither time nor a measurement of time, but everything is one eternal momentâ€

[Source: WA 10III, 194; Althaus, 416].

TOT, note Luther's use of the word "irrelevant" and note his reasons why he says "Soul Sleep" is irrelevant to the one "sleeping" ... ha, I grinned when I read that.

You can find the above quote in the 3rd paragraph from the bottom, here:
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/04/luthers-understanding-of-soul-sleep.html

Cheers.

♫♫

PS
The article notes that Luther held "Soul Sleep", not a Dogmatic Theology, but as mere speculative theology. (See last paragraph.)

 

[John 8:32]

/smile ... Your statement can mean only that there is no evidence that has convinced you and those who agree with you.
But there are a lot of evidences that have convinced me, and those who agree with me, that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.

For the record, I am convinced that the evidence for what you term 'soul sleep' (aka genuine death) is more heavily supported by the scriptures than the idea of consciousness during death is. From Job, to Samual's mother, to Jesus, the Bible talks about the resurrection hope as opposed to the idea of Heave/Hell/Bosom of Abraham immediately after death. But, you also have texts that talk about communicating with the dead and the Medium at Endor that somehow seemed to conjur up Samuel for King Saul that takes a contradictory stance.

Both sides are firmly convinced that they have sufficient evidence to support their position. Both sides affirm the other side to hold incorrect interpretations of the passages that bear on this issue.
Both sides holding opposite contradictory positions, can (and usually do) issue proclamations that they have the correct interpretations of the Bible verses bearing upon the positions they hold.
Both sides usually demand that the opposing side explain their "rebutal verses" to their personal satisfaction, and all other verses to their personal satisfaction, and almost always the decision on both sides is that "You have failed to explain them to my satisfaction." LOL

A Reasonable Conclusion:

Neither side has satidfactory evidence as the 'source material' is not explicitly clear on the matter and at times seems to contradict itself. Because of these 'source material' issues, there is no way to arrive at a correct and definitive conclusion.

The old Witch at Endor proof huh?

1Sa 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

What is God's opinion of medium's with familiar spirits?

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Etc.

Now let's think about Samuel, who was he? He was a righteous man. So after he died, he did an end run around God and did something God calls an abomination? Samuel is mentioned in the faithful hall of fame...

Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Did he really do this evil? First of all, Samuel is dead...

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He is awaiting his resurrection. So who did the speaking in I Sam 28? It was an evil spirit, a demon. Wouldn't be the only time...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

This was a lying spirit that pretended to be Samuel. Could not have been Samuel, he was dead.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This was a lying spirit that pretended to be Samuel. Could not have been Samuel, he was dead.

You have way proof of this claim. Nowhere does the text indicate that a spirit pretended to be Samuel. When we read 1 Samuel 28:16-20 the text clearly identifies the speaker as Samuel. I understand the inference you must make in order to help maintain the preconceived integrity of scripture, but the truth is, the text gives NO REASON why this must be done. It speaks clearly and in no way supports the idea of Samuel being an imposter.

 

[Eugene]

Standard Warning

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[John 8:32]

This was a lying spirit that pretended to be Samuel. Could not have been Samuel, he was dead.

You have way proof of this claim. Nowhere does the text indicate that a spirit pretended to be Samuel. When we read 1 Samuel 28:16-20 the text clearly identifies the speaker as Samuel. I understand the inference you must make in order to help maintain the preconceived integrity of scripture, but the truth is, the text gives NO REASON why this must be done. It speaks clearly and in no way supports the idea of Samuel being an imposter.

So, do you believe that Samuel, if alive and presumably in the presence of God, did something God hates?

Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Perhaps you can harmonize these two diametrically opposited ideas? Are the abominable welcome in the Kingdom of God?

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So, do you believe that Samuel, if alive and presumably in the presence of God, did something God hates?
Perhaps you can harmonize these two diametrically opposited ideas? Are the abominable welcome in the Kingdom of God?

I do not presume anything about Samuel's whereabouts post death. In my opinion, he lived, died, and is still dead, but my opinion is meaningless as all that matter for our discussion is what we are shown by the text. The text says Samuel was brought up and that's all I have to work with.

How are we to assume that Samuel, if in the presence of God wasn't commissioned by God to address Saul? We can't assume God wouldn't commission someone to do that which God hates because we have examples of it happening. You posted one above in reference to Ahab. We are told in Proverbs 6:16-19 that God hates several things including a lying tongue, yet God commissioned a spirit to lie in order to fool Ahab.

 

[Eugene]

So, do you believe that Samuel, if alive and presumably in the presence of God, did something God hates?
Perhaps you can harmonize these two diametrically opposited ideas? Are the abominable welcome in the Kingdom of God?

What makes anyone not abominable? Is it not the sacrifice of Christ applied to their lives?

Was the words of prophesy in 1 Samuel 28:19 true? "Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." In Hebrews 11:32 we see Samuel listed in the worthies of faith, and it is said that Saul would be with him.

In 1 Samuel 24:6 And he (David) said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the LORD'S anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.

This was long after God took away the kingdom from Saul.

 

[George Muller]

At this moment where are you sitting? I am sitting on earth, in a chair, in front of a keyboard. I must have missed the train.

Well, you may not understand the scripture? But it is still true. Did you see Jesus forgive your sins? was you there when He died for you? Have you ever seen your born-again spirit?
We look at the things which are seen, but the things which are not seen. Have you ever seen God? Or heaven?


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (Good, take "places"out and its a better point )

2032. epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

 

[George Muller]

Of course it was a real event,

You say this with such a definitive certainty as if you have verified that you opinion on the matter is in fact truth. How do you know that is the case? Evidence please?

...if these things seem too strange for you? I suggest that its because you do not want to believe the truth, but like many others, you believe the parts of scripture that you choose and ignore those that conflict with the doctrines of your group. (J. Witness)?

What is this truth you speak of Mr. Muller?
And as far as your point that people believe/cherry pick parts of scripture that backs their opinions and preconceptions, you are 100% right on. With that in mind, what's your take on the many scriptures that those who may disagree with your beliefs on the Rich Man/Lazarus story of Luke 16? They make some pretty solid, Bible-based points.

Well if It was real you are defeated in your doctrines altogether, I am sure you would never admit it even if such a man was "raised from the dead".

Lu 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Joh 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

Joh 9:39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

 

[Butch5]

/smile ... Your statement can mean only that there is no evidence that has convinced you and those who agree with you.
But there are a lot of evidences that have convinced me, and those who agree with me, that man is conscious after death until the resurrection.

For the record, I am convinced that the evidence for what you term 'soul sleep' (aka genuine death) is more heavily supported by the scriptures than the idea of consciousness during death is. From Job, to Samual's mother, to Jesus, the Bible talks about the resurrection hope as opposed to the idea of Heave/Hell/Bosom of Abraham immediately after death. But, you also have texts that talk about communicating with the dead and the Medium at Endor that somehow seemed to conjur up Samuel for King Saul that takes a contradictory stance.

Both sides are firmly convinced that they have sufficient evidence to support their position. Both sides affirm the other side to hold incorrect interpretations of the passages that bear on this issue.
Both sides holding opposite contradictory positions, can (and usually do) issue proclamations that they have the correct interpretations of the Bible verses bearing upon the positions they hold.
Both sides usually demand that the opposing side explain their "rebutal verses" to their personal satisfaction, and all other verses to their personal satisfaction, and almost always the decision on both sides is that "You have failed to explain them to my satisfaction." LOL

A Reasonable Conclusion:

Neither side has satidfactory evidence as the 'source material' is not explicitly clear on the matter and at times seems to contradict itself. Because of these 'source material' issues, there is no way to arrive at a correct and definitive conclusion.

Hi Truth,

Concerning the medium who seemed to conjure up Samuel, I would submit that what she saw were demons, not disembodied humans. In that passage, when asked what she saw, she said, I saw gods coming up. In the Scriptures gods are demons.

 

[Butch5]

Simply proof texting passages does not prove your point

Of course the clear text are the proof, what do you need a long explanation of mans carnal reasonings to explain away what God has said in clear words?

Where did God say people go to Heaven when they die? Where is this clear text?

Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in hisdeath, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Neither of these passages even mention Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Where did God say people go to Heaven when they die? Where is this clear text?

I have already seen many people post in very clear words this very thing. Comment deleted I will post this again;


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (Good, take "places"out and its a better point )

2032. epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

George, this has been addressed. The word places is "NOT" in the Greek texts, it was added by the translators. Heavenly is an adjective, it's being used as a substantive, is in the neuter gender and has the definite article. The neuter gender indicates things, not places. It should read 'made us to sit together in the heavenly things.'

Well you just replaced "things" for "places" and tried to explain away the word; "heaven" which is not a adjective but a noun.
epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

The word "together" was used three times in Eph 2:5-6. It is describing our union with Christ in being "quickened" (Eph 2:5), "raised" (this verse), and seated "in heavenly places" (this verse). None of these things are possible on our own. It is only through our union with Christ that any of this is attainable. Our victory in the Christian life is dependent on our dependency on Christ and not on ourselves. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to live for Christ. Instead, we need to recognize our weaknesses and let Him live through us.
"Made us sit" (this verse), "raised" (Eph 1:20 and this verse), and "quickened" (Eph 2:1 and 5) are all in the aorist tense. This indicates something that God has already accomplished in Christ, not something that is off in the future.

I'm sorry George but you're incorrect. "Heavenly" is an adjective not a noun, that why it has an "ly" on the end. Here are the morphological codes.

ἐπουράνιος adjective normal dative neuter plural no degree from ἐπουράνιος

Notice it is an adjective in the neuter gender. It's being used as a substantive and in the neuter gender means things, not places.

 

[Butch5]

We have proof positive from Paul that there is not conscious state for those who are dead.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: 14 and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: 17 and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:1 ASV)

Paul said, if Christ isn't raised then those who died in Christ have perished. If they were alive in some disembodied state they wouldn't have perished, even if Christ was not risen. This proves that they are not conscious after death.

 

[Grappler]

At this moment where are you sitting? I am sitting on earth, in a chair, in front of a keyboard. I must have missed the train.

Well, you may not understand the scripture? But it is still true. Did you see Jesus forgive your sins? was you there when He died for you? Have you ever seen your born-again spirit?
We look at the things which are seen, but the things which are not seen. Have you ever seen God? Or heaven?


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in "heavenly places" in Christ Jesus: (Good, take "places"out and its a better point )

2032. epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

George. Ever hear of a hyperbole? Paul is speaking hyperbolically when he said that we are sitting together in heaven with Jesus. How do I know that? From rightly dividing the word. Paul is speaking in his present time when he said we are sitting together with Jesus in heaven. Now as he wrote Ephesians was he sitting in heaven? Ofcourse not. But if you read the text word for word literally then Paul was sitting in heaven at the moment he was writing Ephesians. We understand that Paul is not saying that he was literally sitting in heaven but figuratively sitting in heaven because Jesus had given him eternal life. Why do you continue to ignore the scripture that Paul wrote describing the dead as being "asleep"?