Does The Bible Have a Position on Gambling?

[Maedchen]

@ farouk: No, dear brother, I am just a fashion model. Nothing spectacular. ;)

[MENTION=96634]Rose[/MENTION], oh okay! Anyway, my wife doesn't manage more than a couple of inches now, but you must be well adept and practised at being able to float along in several inches of heels: my wife used to, but can't do the high ones now. In your line of work it must be nice to develop a sense of matching colors and patterns and fabrics, anyhow, lights and shadows, background contrasts: a surrounding artistic sense, I guess.

I'm sure in your line of work it would involve a lot of evenings in hotel rooms, too (of which Vegas has plenty); maybe you've gotten into the habit of reading your Bible instead of watching TV! (I myself have done quite a bit of Bible study in hotel rooms.)

Blessings.

Well, yes. Usually I don't watch TV. Too much sex, crime and bad things promoted, I think.
As a JW I always had to explain to my colleagues why I did not come with them to parties, or other invitations after the working hours. That was easy then. I just mentioned my religion and everyone understood (even though while shaking their heads). Now, as I am no longer a JW, I just mention that I have so many things yet to read that I need to use my time for that. I read various literature about the bible and following Christ. The bible itself, too, of course.

And I must say that this forum here also helps me to reflect on biblical themes. It is a great place here with great people! Really !!

Love, Rose

[MENTION=96634]Rose[/MENTION]:

My wife and I have read the Bible together and prayed ever since we were married; obviously we have business trips etc as well, when we're occasionally not together but this is something by God's grace we have maintained since we were married. Yes, sometimes coworkers have all sorts of expectations but they learn to respect people's habits and convictions, expecially when they might want to go out drinking, to shows, etc.

Re. your line of work too, as well as the advanced heels skills thing, when I think of my wife feeling she's not dressed when going out unless she puts on her face, I reckon folk that are in your profession must spend even more time than my wife doing it; all necessary, of course, but I guess that men need to figure that for a woman it does sometimes take far more time to put on one's face than to get dressed, especially in your profession, I guess. Blessings.

No, farouk. Actually I wear only eyeliner and lipstick. If there is a special make up necessary for certain shootings, then the makeup team will provide it there. I usually like to appear more natural.

And regarding your bible reading with your dear wife, I think that is a really wonderful thing to do together as a couple.
I wished I could do so, too. - Maybe some day.

May God bless you two, Rose

 

[Brother Mike]

farouk

it could also be said that in times of inflation it's actually safer to have money in some stable stock than in the bank, and so less of a risk! So it's a matter of definition, really. I think it's a case of asking what is the primary purpose of the activity.

Right! Issac was planing to head over to Egypt because the drought and poverty in the Land he was at was devastating. Good sound financial advice would be to go to Egypt. The Lord said stay and sow into that land and Isaac reaped 100 fold and became wealthy when everyone else was hurting. Some of the best times to jump in is when everyone is jumping out. The whole point is, What did the Lord say to do?

That was my point. As a believer we need to be ready to respond to God without the concern of any circumstances. If the Lord told me to buy 5 lottery tickets, then I buy them even though normally I would feel as I might as well give that 5.00 to someone that needed it. The Lord told me to trade, and Bless God for the first 6 years it sure seemed like I did not hear Him correctly about it. Prices move up, down or go into a sideways channel. How hard could it be? You have a 1/3 chance of being right. You can hear my gambling mentality in that statement.

I lost two accounts, everything. I could not figure it out. If the Lord said do this, then why is it not working? It does work, but I had to learn not to value money. When I lost money, it would make me mad and I would double up on my next trade in an attempt to get it all back. I had emotions tied to loving the root of all evil. If you love money, you will fail at trading, and it took years to get that out of my system. I was so tired of being broke all the time, I just wanted God to pour the cash in. However, I was not a trader, I was a gambler. I had a trading plan (There are hundreds for all time frame charts) but when I thought a big move was going to happen I threw the trading plan out the window in hopes of a big cash in. This is making money my leader, and money makes a bad general.

Now, money is a tool. That is it. I stick with the trading plan, and make money or lose money, it does not matter. I am not moved by 10's and not moved by millions. If God wants to get a jet air plane over to a Pastor, then bless God. It is a tool, and God certainly did not run out of money to feed to poor doing that. WE need to go after what God has laid in our heart to go after. There is not one wealthy person God has made that is corrupt, or has added sorrow to it. You have to go through the process, and it's all by faith, and walking by faith looks just like gambling to most.

When my son had cancer and I was told he would not live by some very good doctors in Chicago I am thankful for. I still passed on a persons offer to pay for the funeral, headstone, coffin and everything. I told that person no thank you, even though the doctors said my son would be dead in a day or so.

Trusting and following God looks like gambling to the unlearned, but not following God, and having contingency plans in case God does not come through. That is really Gambling.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Dear Truth over Tradition, Could you please explain to me why Isaiah 65:11,12 as cited by me above is not to be seen as a condemnation of gambling? I really believed that these verses made a clear statement regarding that issue. Rose

I'll try my best Rose. Let's look at the context of the verses in question to see what light it may shed.

'I was seen by those not searching for Me; I was found by those not asking for Me. And I said Here I am to a nation, that had not called on My Name. 2 For, I've held out My hands all day long, to a people who just will not listen, and to those who talk back… those who've not followed in good ways, but who keep on [walking] in sin. 3 They stand there before Me and make Me mad… they sacrifice in their gardens, and burn incense on bricks before demons; 4 they sleep in tombs and in caves to have dreams; they eat pigs, then [offer their] gravy to Me. So, all that [they offer] is tainted, 5 then they say, Stay away… don't approach me! Because, I have made myself clean!
'This is the smoke of My rage… it's a fire that will burn throughout the days. 6 Look! It's written that here in My presence, I won't stay silent until I've repaid; I'll [rake] all their sins onto their chests, 7 as well as the sins of their fathers,' says Jehovah. 'Upon all who burned incense on mountains, and speak ill of Me in the hills; I'll [rake] their [bad] deeds on their chests!'
8 Jehovah says: 'When they find seeds in grape clusters, they say: Don't throw them away; for, they will bring us good luck! And that's how I'll deal with My servants… that's what I'll do, so I don't destroy all. 9 From Jacob and Judah I'll pick out one seed, and He will inherit My Holy Mountain… he will inherit My elected, and they will dwell with him there. 10 Then, flocks will live in their groves, and there in the Valley of Achor, My people's herds will find rest… those who are searching for Me.
11 'But you are the ones who have left Me… you've abandoned My Holy Mountain… you prepare tables for demons, and mix [potions] to bring you good luck. 12 So, to the sword I'll now hand you, and you will fall in the slaughter; for, I called to you, but you wouldn't listen… I spoke, and you paid no attention; you kept doing what's wicked before Me, and the things I didn't want are the things that you chose.
13 'And because of this,' says Jehovah, '{Look!} Those who serve Me will eat; but, you in turn, will go hungry. {Look!} All My servants will drink; but you, in turn, will be thirsty. {Look!} Those serving Me will be happy; but you will just be ashamed. 14 {Look!} Those serving Me will cry out in joy; but you'll cry out in misery of heart, and you'll shriek for the destruction of your lives.
15 'Then the name that you'll leave behind, to My elected, will be just a glut; so, the Lord will do away with you all.

The passage seems to be referring to the behaviors and punishments of people of Old Covenant Israel that were in rebellion to God. I see nothing that discusses gambling at all.

 

[Maedchen]

@ Brother Mike

Dear Brother, I just read your comment in my break, and I wanted to tell you how much I am sorry for your son's death.
Although we know that he is certainly with Jesus and that he is well and happy and free now, it just made me cry though.

I hope that you and your wife are okay by now, and I will remember you in my prayers.

And your gambling-explanation is very true, I think.

Love, Rose

 

[Maedchen]

@ Truth over Tradition

Thank you, ToT, and you see it in the right context in the Old Covenant. But even your translation says in verse 11 that they " mix potions to bring you good luck", which is then part of the list that is condemned by God ("you will fall in the slaughter"). To hope that something ( a drink, caressing a casino machine, lucky stones, whatever...) will bring you good luck means to me to not trust in God but hoping that luck will provide for you. Don't you think so ???

Okay, then it is not extra mentioned for the New Covenant. But honestly, we want to follow Christ. Hence our name 'Christians'. Can you imagine our dear Lord Jesus Christ gambling????? I can't.

Love, Rose

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Can you imagine our dear Lord Jesus Christ gambling????? I can't.

I honestly don't know that I can either, but that doesn't mean He wouldn't or that He would disapprove of the act. Many of the religious folks of His time never thought the Messiah would eat with sinners, but He did.

To hope that something ( a drink, caressing a casino machine, lucky stones, whatever...) will bring you good luck.......

To me, putting one's Godly trust in anything in place of God is explicitly spoken against. I don't however see how gambling qualifies as this in many instances. As a previous poster stated, in order to determine that, we'd first need to be able to judge the heart and intentions of the participant and since we aren't God such judgment has little merit.

 

[farouk]

No, farouk. Actually I wear only eyeliner and lipstick. If there is a special make up necessary for certain shootings, then the makeup team will provide it there. I usually like to appear more natural.

And regarding your bible reading with your dear wife, I think that is a really wonderful thing to do together as a couple.
I wished I could do so, too. - Maybe some day.

May God bless you two, Rose

[MENTION=96634]Rose[/MENTION]:

Oh well you must know how to put on what (little?) you need real fast, then.

Yes, well, you never know how the Lord may lead you, right? sooner or later...

Blessings.

PS: My wife and I would indeed like to get to Vegas, if mainly for the good hotel deals, and the excursions to the mountains, Hoover Dam, etc. (not for the casinos! ) There's probably some good churches down there too, someplace.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rose:

Dear Brother, I just read your comment in my break, and I wanted to tell you how much I am sorry for your son's death.

I said the Doctors at Chicago Children Memorial Hospital (Off Lakeshore Drive) said that he would not live past a couple days. They could not stop the cancer in his body and they tried short of killing him with radiation. The cancer was a rare type of T-cell lymphoma. Normally kids get the B-cell which is very treatable if caught early.

I had a relative go visit my son and wife and talked to the doctors. Hearing the grim report my relative offered to cover all the funeral expenses and pay for everything so I would not be burdened. That was day 7 of my son being in Chicago, on day 8 I got a call from the wife telling me that they don't expect my son to live through the night at best pass away that next morning. There was nothing they could do.

My point was that Faith does not prepare for God to fail or not come through. Faith does not take two positions and faith is not based on what is going on around you or any reports. That was my point.

Gambling:
We gamble when we have what the word of God says, but take another position just in case the Word of God does not become true in our life. Taking another position against God's Word is gambling. I know the outcome if I side with the Word only, I don't know the outcome if I choose to believe other things or waiver on what God said.

So, since faith does not prepare for God to fail, I turned down the generous offer to have all the burial taken care of for my son. I did not need to hedge my bets (Taking opposite position of your betting to pad the loss.) I put everything on the Word (BET) of God and never said once my son would not make it, and never said once my son would die. I never sided with the devil one time.

Day 9 I got a call in the morning from the wife who was with my son in Chicago. The day my son was suppose to have died. The first words out of her mouth was that my son would be in the hospital all day long before he goes home. She sounded a bit crazy. Where else would my son be? She then said that my son was alive and they tested but could not find one cancer cell in his body. In fact they could not tell He even had cancer and thought they were missing something and needed to test all day.

They did try to tell me something about being in remission and the cancer could come back. I had another word for them.
I quoted the Doctor this scripture, and assured him it would not be possible for the cancer to come back.

Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

I have the report at home. It reads. "Sudden and unexpected response to chemotherapy" He was 8 then, my son is now 21 and servers on the Church Internet team.

farouk

PS: I think the discussion must have taken this turn because we were all talking about Vegas.

someone mention going to Vegas? I'm in...... Great buffets!!!

Mike.

 

[farouk]

farouk[/B]

PS: I think the discussion must have taken this turn because we were all talking about Vegas.

someone mention going to Vegas? I'm in...... Great buffets!!!

Mike.

Mike :

Really glad your son is okay.

Yes, and restaurants in Vegas, too. (I'll reckon that in states such as Nevada, Arizona, etc they have a lot of Mexican food places, too; one of our favorites.)

 

[JLB]

The vast majority of people who gamble from time to time do not fit into what is described in these scriptures.

I am not condemning anyone.

If you go back and read my original post, this is the position I maintain.

There is a balance to everything.

As in all things, there is a balance.

Are we talking casinos, sports wagering or the stock market or Forex.

Who is the person who is involved?

Do they possess self control?

Do they have a tract record of hearing from God and being led by His Spirit?

What is there motive, and what will they do with the money?

Thanks JLB

 

[Deborah13]

God should be the most important thing in your life,therefore all other things in your daily life should be worked around God (not the other way around). A simple thing to remember is that you should live to prove your faith (whether to prove it to God,yourself,or other people, it doesn't really matter).Does gambling prove your faith in any way? If the answer is "No",then stop doing it.God bless you. Andy

Does playing piano prove one's faith? Does going fishing prove one's faith?
Should I stop fishing because it doesn't prove my faith?

I think you maybe didn't mean quite what you said?? Or I don't understand you correctly?

 

[Brother Mike]

JLB

I am not condemning anyone.

If you go back and read my original post, this is the position I maintain.

There is a balance to everything.

I think that is a correct way to look at anything, even things labeled Gambling. I would not have any issue dropping 10.00 worth of nickels into a slot machine. Not that I would, but just saying.

Motive and heart are what would be important to God. Do I have a defined plan to buy lotto tickets because the Lord said so? Am I just buying a few for just in case you never know? I think the problem comes when I am buying them as a plan to get ahead without direction from the Lord. What am I being led by?

Business, Markets, Gambling for gain would be a consideration as the Lord said He is the one that supply's your needs. Am I wasting resources, time and energy in something the Lord never mentioned to me? Jesus said without me you can do nothing, so any profit gained from anything would come to nothing if the Lord was not involved in it.

Vegas!!!
As a truck driver a few years back I use to go through Vegas once a week out to California. I would always stop at the Casino and eat at the buffet. You could not beat the price. I can't say I ever used the slots or gambled though because it did not make sense to throw money at something I knew nothing about. The food was good though.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

As in all things, there is a balance.

I agree with post.

I like to play cards and gamble against my dh or friends but I hate to use money. Don't even buy lottery tickets.

But I will buy drawing tickets when the money is going to a good cause, win or lose.

 

[Deborah13]

The Market is not exactly the same as gambling. Investing in stocks infuses capital that allows the economy to grow. When one invests in stocks, he is actually becoming part owner of a company. If the company does well there is an ROI, if it does poorly, there is a loss.

I been to a casino once, not my thing. But for little towns in western states in infuses capital and allows the local economy to grow.

The problem I see it that people can get hooked on gambling in casinos to where they don't feed their families.

 

[Deborah13]

@ Truth over Tradition

Thank you, ToT, and you see it in the right context in the Old Covenant. But even your translation says in verse 11 that they " mix potions to bring you good luck", which is then part of the list that is condemned by God ("you will fall in the slaughter"). To hope that something ( a drink, caressing a casino machine, lucky stones, whatever...) will bring you good luck means to me to not trust in God but hoping that luck will provide for you. Don't you think so ???

Okay, then it is not extra mentioned for the New Covenant. But honestly, we want to follow Christ. Hence our name 'Christians'. Can you imagine our dear Lord Jesus Christ gambling????? I can't.

Love, Rose

I think you are right Rose in away. I think this is talking about Israel in rebellion and they were serving idols, false gods, even to giving them drinks.

First we have to look at the difference between Christians and non Christians. A non Christian believes in LUCK so yes they will wish for luck at the machines.
A Christian does not believe in Luck for their fortune.

Gambling with the wrong motives and intent can afflict a believer as well as the unbeliever.

Sometimes people just gamble for fun. Not to get rich or do they pray for Luck. They are not addicted to it so it has not become an idol to them.

I love to play cards and gamble with dh. We play cribbage and gamble for the fun of it.

 

[Obadiah]

The problem I see it that people can get hooked on gambling in casinos to where they don't feed their families.

Yes, and THIS is what I think the scriptures are talking about. Much like many other things, it's not the gambling itself that scripture condemns, its the abuse of it that is condemned. And someone who has a tendency to "get hooked" on these type of things is well advised to stay away from them. Fortunately the vast majority of people who do a little gambling from time to time do not abuse it, they don't become addicted to it, and they certainly don't (for Christians) put it before God anymore than they probably do or do not with many other things in their lives that never get questioned. It is only a tiny percentage of all who have ever gambled that actually take it to the point of spending all their money on it to the point that they are unable to care for themselves or their families. But since that tiny percentage is what is glorified in the movies, news reports, books, and magazines it just makes it seem like putting a quarter in a slot machine is a sure step through the gates of hell itself for all of us. That's just not the case for most people.

Someone asked if any of us could picture Jesus gambling. Well I can picture him doing a lot of things we are never told about. To those who say they can't picture Him gambling I would ask you to question yourself as to why not. Is it just possible that you have heard for so long from conservative Christian tradition that gambling is a sin that you just assume it must be so? So therefore you also assume since Jesus didn't sin that he would never gamble? But I don't see it that way.

Traditional beliefs of men do not dictate what Jesus would or would not have done, and as for what Jesus actually did with his time, we really know very little. Jesus in human form lived, what, about 33 years? Yet almost all of what is recorded about what he did in that 33 years can be read in a book (any of the gospels) in a matter of a couple of hours and includes almost nothing of his routine daily activities. Surely Jesus did a lot of things that we are never told about!

 

[Obadiah]

Dear Obadiah, I had been to Vegas with my casting team. We had photo shootings in the mountains behind the city while riding on horses. That was quite an adventure, especially as I am not very good in horse back riding. Yes, they have great buffets ( especially Bellagio and Wynn), but after eating there you have to refrain from eating for a whole week to get back into shape...

Yeah, I saw from your later posts that you are a fashion model. Yep, better stay away from those buffets unless you are making a career change to modeling plus sizes only! But when you do have that moment of weakness, the Station Casinos have membership cards that get you a lunch buffet for $4 and dinner buffet for $7 (if I remember correctly) and they are almost as good as the Bellagio and Wynn! So yeah, stay away. Far away!

In reading your other views on gambling being a sin, I disagree with your interpretation of the verses you and some others are using to support this stance. But that's ok. From reading your posts I congratulate you on coming out of the JW cult and get the impression that this is relatively recent for you. As you are seeing, there are differences in true Christianity from the JW beliefs. But as you grow in Christ and learn more about Christianity it is always wise to stay away from things that you believe are sins. Just be careful not to condemn others who do not see it the same way unless there are very clear scriptures saying something is a sin. Not saying yo are doing this, just saying is all. In the case of gambling, I think just reading this thread is good proof that there aren't clear scriptures on this particular subject.

Maybe one of the best verses I can think of is Romans 14:23. It is talking about whether or not it is ok to eat certain things that were at the time considered wrong to eat by some people. I think the New Living Translation puts the verse well when it states "But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning."

I think for anyone who truly believes gambling is a sin, this verse is pretty clear; Stay away from it. Just remember that it actually says "...if you have doubts about whether or not you should...", it doesn't say that if you feel it is a sin for yourself that it's ok to tell everyone else they are also sinning. (And by "you" I mean anyone this applies to, not just you, Rose.) Later on after you have had more time to study this issue and to pray about it and ask God for guidance, if you decide you no longer believe gambling is a sin, then it would no longer be a sin for you to do it within the guidelines of scripture. (i.e. don't get addicted and abuse it, of course!) But don't do it if you believe it is a sin!

 

[Maedchen]

@ Brother Mike

Dear Brother, I am sorry that I jumped to that conclusion about your son.

But, praise The Lord, he is alive and healthy now. I believe from your story that this was a miracle. And God saw how much you trusted Him. That is such a powerful testimony!!

Again, I am sorry. But very happy for you and your family!

Love Rose

 

[farouk]

Hi [MENTION=93344]Obadiah[/MENTION]:

Yes, I can see ourselves at buffets in Vegas, if I visit there with my wife. I don't think [MENTION=96634]Rose[/MENTION] goes to Vegas principally because of the restaurants, though. I'm sure there is a whole range of activities in and around Vegas, without getting involved with gambling, which would not be our scene.

Blessings.

 

[Maedchen]

@ Truth over Tradition and Obadiah

Dear brothers,

I understood your point. We should not judge anyone, for only God can look into our hearts and does know about our true intentions. I absolutely agree. Still regarding gambling, nobody so far referred to my question about Isaiah 65:11, where mixing drinks for the god of good luck is condemned.

But anyway, please let me say just one more thing regarding judging. All I am writing are thoughts about whether I myself would do one thing or not ( I understood that Obadiah sees that). I am not (!) judging others, because we are told not to do so, but because I know the pain for the judged person that comes with it.

Just that you know, I did not simply go out of a church and was wished well by my former fellow believers. No, I am shunned!
For those who don't know what that means: I am officially declared as an apostate, and when a JW sees me coming along the street, he will either hold his hands in front of his eyes and tell his children not to look at me, or he will point with his finger on me and say that I am a follower of Satan. Just because I left.
When JWs who do not know about my shunning come into my direction I am told to warn them about my uncleanliness, very much like those lepers had to warn others that they would not contaminate themselves.

I am writing this in order to make you understand that I am much aware of what it means to be judged. All I am trying to do is trying to know God's will.

And I don't have a friend or husband left who could answer me such questions. That is the reason why I am taking part in your discussions.

I am happy to be allowed to 'talk' with you on this forum. And I know that I have still some Watchtower views, but those are only restrictions meant for myself.

Love, Rose